Subject: Renewal Conference From: Karen Poe To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 29, 1999 at 23:21:52 (EDT) Email Address: NPoe705954 Message: Dear Brother Given: Just a word to say thank you for the invitation to attend the 9th Renewal Conference in Crown Pointe. Phil and I were blessed more than we have been in years. It truly was refreshing. The messages were edifying and the singing was wonderful. The fellowship was truly sweet and helped to build us up in our most holy faith. Pray for Phil as he ministers the Word of God this coming Sunday and as we seek the Lord's leading for a full-time ministry. Justin graduated tonight from the police academy and was selected to give a reponse on behalf of all the recruits. A 10 min. speech. We were proud as parents and thankful to the Lord for His work of grace in His life. E-mail us anytime. Give our love to Sister June and family. Co-workers together with you. Phil and Karen

Subject: Trust God and Obey Him From: Marc LeBlanc To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 23:11:02 (EDT) Email Address: LeBlancFamily@yahoo.com Message: Hi! I really mean this. We must trust God and love Him with all our hearts. He has set the standard of love by sparing nothing, not even His son, for the remission of our sins. Faith in Jesus Christ is obedient faith, that follows Jesus everywhere He leads. For us today, there is the Bible. How are we to follow Him if we don't know what He said, what He did and what He has told us to do? How can we claim to be seeking Him if we're not passionate about His words? Why do we want to follow Jesus? I'll tell you why...because He will bring us to Heaven! He will shut up evil for ever and replace it with good and love! He will wipe off the tears of those who are trusting in Him! We must trust and obey God with every part of our lives. This is our great gift. This is the only gift worth persuing. This life is short, then comes judgement and then a life that never ends. Please don't waste your time. Give your heart to God now. God will not run away from you. Pick up a Bible, and read it. Start with the Gospel, read Acts too. Find what it says we should do and do those things. Your faith in Him will be rewarded. In Jesus, brother Marc <'}}}><

Subject: Prayer From: Leo Bracciale To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 16:33:28 (EDT) Email Address: leo_037 Message: Send any prayer requests you might have to leo_037@yahoo.com <(((((>< LRB

Subject: How Do I Know? From: Anonymous To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 20, 1999 at 13:27:21 (EDT) Email Address: seeking@oal.com Message: Hi everyone. I want to ask, 'how do you know there is a God?' I have been struggling with this lately. Thanks.

Subject: Re: How Do I Know? From: Marc LeBlanc To: Anonymous Date Posted: Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 10:32:31 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Hi everyone. I want to ask, 'how do you know there is a God?' I have been struggling with this lately. Thanks. --- Hi there, A starting point... I am reminded of creation. The Bible says: For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. - Romans 1:20 In Jesus, brother Marc <'}}}><

Subject: Full Circle From: Marc LeBlanc To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 10:32:15 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Good morning! This is not a question. It's just a perception. I have this feeling that I've done a full circle going from one big church to finding God's salvation in another to finding myself in a cold church again. I once tackled this feeling away by putting the burden of being friendly and warm on my own shoulders. It's on my mind these days that there is not just a 'more accurate' plan of salvation but there is a love missing sometimes in our manigances. I still hear people say things like: 'We're united in Truth'. I believed that wholeheartedly but my balloon was busted once I got to know more Christians. We're a very diverse group of people. I don't mind the diversity, I mind the lack of togetherness. I don't want someone to tell me what a Christian is or should be. I want to be with Jesus in Heaven. <>

Subject: Re: Full Circle From: Samuel To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 12:57:20 (EDT) Email Address: samhuffman27@hotmail.com Message: Hello, Mark. Samuel here. I well identify with your perception. After having been raised in traditional 'Christianity', several years later (in time of crisis) I was actually cleansed from sin and made a new creation within. Upon giving that testimony I found that an overwhelming majority of the church people did not identify with actually being born-again within. They knew the verses and could teach the doctrines, but seemingly He had not actually entered their lives yet. They just had a mass of book knowledge and traditions, no life. Only occasionally did somebody say 'Hey, Buddy! You mean he's freed you from sin and changed your life, too!? Wow! Me, too! Let's eat lunch together! Tell me how He's changed your life!!!' Mark, if you're around people who identify the word 'saved' as just meaning going to heaven when you die, you're not going to find very much heart-to-heart fellowship. However when you find somebody who knows 'saved' means 'rescued' from a life of sin and made a complete new person within, then you'll find that close fellowship you're seeking (if that's what 'saved' means to you). Mark, look around for those who testify openly that their lives ahave been cleansed of sin and made new by the power that has raised messiah Jesus from the world of the dead. These are probably your true believers. Chances are the others have either gone to sleep or have not yet awakened to the resurrection of God's Hebrew Christ, the son of David. Mark, don't seek your fellowship among the religious 'dead'. Seek fellowship among the 'living'. Search for them. Seek and ye shall find. Your friend, Samuel samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: Re: Full Circle From: Marc LeBlanc To: Samuel Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 17:56:23 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Hi brother Samuel, Thanks for your reply. I've thought about what you said and also about what I said. You know, I shouldn't give the impression that there is something wrong with the people I church with. Really, yesterday, I was discouraged. I've resigned from my job last week and things are a bit tense right now. I'm trying to focus on Jesus. Up! Up! Up! I agree with you, sometimes it seems we're all swimming in Mod Podge. 'The candle is ready but there's no flame.' Yes, I have that impression sometimes. But who am I to make that kind of a judgement on others? That's what bothers me about my message entitled 'Full Circle'. I realize I must lift up my eyes, and ask God to give me the strength to bless others. Perhaps it's my heart who's gotten cold. I need Jesus! I remember a time when I didn't bother with any of these thoughts. I'd go to church on Sundays and that was the hour of the week I loved the most. All my worries and troubles were gone for that period of time. I'd carry my Bible and a journal so I could take notes on the sermon. Sometimes we'd have potlucks or baseball games after the worship service. That was fun. We'd hug each other and shake hands and talk just before worship and we'd always stay a while in the hall after service to drink coffee and talk. Now I go to a different group because I've moved from one city to another. The group is smaller and the athmosphere is more serious I guess. But nevertheless, we've all developed friendships. I'd like to keep on feeding the fire in chuch with smiles, prayer, love, laughter, games, excitement for the Word, people who are happy to see each other, more prayer, food, more smiles, more joy, dedication to the Lord, more prayer, song of praise and worship to the Lord, hearts for the Lord, more praise, more worship, studying of God's word, excitement for the words He left us, more prayer, love, smiling faces, remembering Jesus, the fruits of the Spirit abounding, a big family waiting for Him... Ahh! I'd like to be in Heaven playing a good game of volley ball with Jesus, children and the family. :-) Have a good weekend Samuel! In Jesus, brother Marc <'}}}><

Subject: Re: Full Circle From: Samuel To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 15:16:27 (EDT) Email Address: samhuffman27@hotmail.com Message: Hello, Mark. Samuel here. Perhaps I'm hearing you wrong, Mark, but your description of what you're identifying as 'serving the Lord' sounds more like a social club than a gathering of people who have been freed from sin, (the power of Satan), and made new creations unto the God of Jacob. Has the power of the same divine spirit that raised Messiah from the world of the dead come into you and changed you within, my friend? Someone didn't trick you into saying one of those 'come into my heart, Jesus' prayers did they? And then tell you that that was getting 'saved' and your ticket to heaven when you die? I certainly hope not. That's an invention of the Gentile culture, Mark, not of the Eternal God of the Hebrews and His risen son whom we serve and obey. Help me out here, Mark. You sound more like you want a Sunday social group instead of the divine nature that enters into a believer when conversion occurrs within them. You haven't been taught the religious social doctrines and traditions of man instead of the kingdom of our God since your first believed, have you? Give me some feedback. Help me out here. Samuel. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: Re: Full Circle From: Marc LeBlanc To: Samuel Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 17:39:20 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Hi Samuel, No, I am not encouraging moral looseness. I am encouraging obedience to Christ as it is found in the Bible. I want to love people into Christ, to be a blessing to others, and to refresh people who say they are Christian. However, I cannot trade the truth for fellowship. With some people, that means I will have limited fellowship at best. That makes me sad. For example, if someone tells me they are saved and that they have Jesus into their heart, and if they do not want to be baptised, I understand what they mean, but I can't agree. I've spent these last 4 years of my Christian walk seeking Jesus. I love Him and I've committed my entire life into His hands. I've obeyed His commands as far as I understand them and I try my best to stop sinning. I've also braught the Gospel message to all my friends and to all my relatives. If I am wrong, and the Bible can show me so, by the grace and mercy of God, I will change and do what is right. Full Circle was a perception about church life. Where is the love and the friendship and the caring that Jesus wants us to have for each other? If we don't love our brothers and sisters in Christ, the Bible says we're in the dark still. As I am growing in Christ, I am living these things. These are not etheral questions I swing up in the air. They are real in my life. So yes, believe in God but just a belief is not enough. You must obey Him. And then some say you are saved by baptism. Yes, you must be baptized and anywhere salvation in mentioned, baptism is always closely related, and yet this is not enough, if you don't love God with your whole heart and if you don't love your brethren. And what is love? GOd set the standard of love by sparing absolutely nothing. He gave us His Son to die for our sins. That is the standard of love. I hope this helps. Please don't give up on me. I hope you are not offended by my tone. We can be best of friends and brothers in Christ, but I will preach His word first. In Jesus, brother Marc with a c :) <'}}}><

Subject: Re: Full Circle From: Samuel To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 17:48:25 (EDT) Email Address: samhuffman27@hotmail.com Message: Hello, my friend Mark. Walk in the power of his resurrection. I've sent you some e-mail. Let me know what you think. Samuel. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: Free Books help the Hurting From: Becky Johnson To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 10:27:13 (EDT) Email Address: BkyJohn@aol.com Message: Dear Friends, Give and it shall be given unto you, that's my motto. Recently I visited a web site of many people in great despair, hurting, hungry and very discouraged across the world. My heart cried out to help them all. I began to put together a few books containing testimonies and encouraging words of scriptures. I do realize not everyone is into God, however there are millions and millions that would greatly be encouraged and get a second wind in life, to just hear God loves and cares for them. Freely I offer these books to them all and freely accept any love and support donation from all who feel this is a worthy cause. I will also donate back from all proceeds or love donations of 15% to the hungry and homeless shelters in your area. I need and would love to publish this offer all over, starting with you. If you see this as a good cause, will you please support by publishing this outreach? As I said, FREELY I give and gratefully I receive any support donations from any and all who love people. Books are: (1) Dawn of Hope (2) Precious Life Hidden in Darkness (3) Building teen character FREE Send to B.J. 1350 Laguna Ct. C. Hanover Park, IL. 60103

Subject: Family problems Help! From: BB To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 11, 1999 at 21:34:58 (EDT) Email Address: bbrande123@aol.com Message: My husband and I have been married 31 yrs and have a wonderful marriage blessed by God. Our children are grown and doing much better now. We are all saved by the grace of God.Our problem is my husbands family. We have had various ongoing problems with his sister who is a very jealous envious liar and has done nothing but cause problems for 31yrs for us. She has kept my husband and his parents at odds for years. She will not own up to any of her stories she tells about me (grievances from 31yrs ago and still going) and my husband and her got into it 4yrs ago over it. He told her he didn't want anymore to do with her or her kids as her grown children caused our daughter to attempt suicide and become adicted to drugs. To make a long story short a family member from Arizona came for a visit and we were invited by my husbands aunt to attend a family gathering. We did and his family refused to show up because we were there! My husbands father said I was the cause of all the family problems and I was the liar and my husband. He futher stated I was being divorced and cast out of the family and that I was no longer welcome. My husband and I are very upset and can't understand how a family can act like this? We have been treated like this on and off for 31yrs. I feel so bad for my husband and he is filled with rage and anger at them and never wants to see them again. He is in the process of writing his father a long long letter telling him of all his grievances over the years and how the family has hurt us both continuously over the years. I have had serious health problems because of them and they all know this but still don't care. Please pray for us and help us to find forgiveness for them. My husbands deceased mothers' side of the family is on our side and always have been. We haven't spoke to any of them in four years except his father and now this. I'm afraid this time its a permaent seperation from them as we get continuously hurt by them. My husband is seeing them for what they are for the first time, you would not believe the things they have done to us! Thank You, BB

Subject: Re: Family problems Help! From: Given O. Blakely To: BB Date Posted: Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 12:13:03 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: Jesus said the time would come for many when their foes would be those of their own house (Matt 10:34-36). It is not a pleasant experience, and is not intended to be. You must not be discouraged by the things you have mentioned, but run quickly to Jesus, pouring your heart out to Him. He will give you grace to conduct yourself honorably and subdue any inclinations to strike back. He will also direct your heart on the matter of forgiveness--when it is appropriate, and how to express it. The main thing for you is to keep close to the Lord. Your faith will be rewarded, and you will not be ashamed. Given O. Blakely

Subject: I Enjoy Your Site! From: Leon M. Roberts To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 09, 1999 at 07:46:03 (EDT) Email Address: LRobe22475@aol.com Message: I enjoy your daily devotionals very much but wish you could switch from the KJV to the NKJV, NASB, or NIV as your text for easier readability. Keep up the good work brother!

Subject: Reject 'Promise Keepers' From: Vic Eagle To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 06, 1999 at 17:26:37 (EDT) Email Address: roost7@hotmail.com Message: The name 'Promise Keepers' (PK) is anti-Christian because the Bible tells us not to make promises: Deuteronomy 23:21-23, Proverbs 20:25, Ecclesiastes 5:4-7, Matthew 5:33-37, 21:28-32, James 5:12. In fact, the Bible really advises against making vows/oaths/promises. God is the only true promise keeper. Swearing by God's name is necessary (Romans 10:9-13) but it isn't really a promise to do anything. It's lawful to make a vow about payments or tithing so long as you quickly fulfill it, but not boastful promises about performance like, 'This year, we will go deeper' (from a PK pamphlet). The Bible only condones: 1. vowing and then quickly fulfilling payments/tithes, which can only be made to God, not man, 2. calling on God as your witness for present actions only, as in Galatians 1:20 and Romans 1:9, and 3. swearing/confessing in God and/or Jesus, of which the sacraments are a symbolic form. Any other kinds of vows/oaths/promises are mistaken and should be cancelled. For example, wedding vows are misguided, sentimental, unrealistic promises to behave perfectly towards your spouse until death separates you. Does anyone know anyone who has kept them? We're not all prophets who can make such predictions. I'm not against marriage, Roman Catholics are, I'm just against marriage vows. Besides the problem with PK's name, Roman Catholic 'priests' took the podium and addressed the 1997 'Stand in the Gap' rally in Washington, D.C. Any affiliation with the RCC or PK should be rejected. Contrary to popular misconception, the Bible calls us to be judgmental. Neither PK nor the RCC is exempt from these criteria for breaking fellowship (all NASB quotes): 1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 1 Corinthians 5:10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters; for then you would have to go out of the world. 1 Corinthians 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one. Ephesians 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; Ephesians 5:12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. Ephesians 5:13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. Ephesians 5:14 For this reason it says, 'Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you.' Ephesians 5:15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men, but as wise, Ephesians 5:16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil. Ephesians 5:17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep aloof from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us. 2 Timothy 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 Timothy 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 2 Timothy 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 2 Timothy 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; 2 Timothy 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these. Titus 3:10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, Titus 3:11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned. 2 John 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 2 John 1:11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds. These aren't suggestions, they're commands. We can't take people at their word, even though they confess the name 'Jesus' (see Matthew 7:21-23). The New Testament repeatedly warns of false prophets, false witnesses, false brothers, and false teachers. We're commanded to be discerning: 1 Corinthians 2:15, Philippians 1:9-10, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 5:14, 2 John 1:8, Revelation 2:2. Some websites exposing PK's heresies: http://www.livingwrd.org/promise.html http://www.godswordfellowship.org/home.html http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/8988/index.html http://www.watch.pair.com/pray.html http://www.clark.net/pub/apettey/deception3.html http://www.jesus-is-lord.com We can expect only bad fruit (though it may taste sweet) from such a heretical organization, which used to charge about $60/man just for stadium rally attendance. Pastors need to go beyond withdrawing support from PK to exposing PK's heresies and strongly warning their congregations. I've heard that PK representatives sometimes use dirty 'coercion tactics' on churches that don't tow their line, but this shouldn't scare us. Only God is to be feared (Matthew 10:28). Ecumenism is not the answer. In Jesus, Vic

Subject: Re: Reject 'Promise Keepers' From: Barry To: Vic Eagle Date Posted: Tues, Jul 06, 1999 at 22:59:54 (EDT) Email Address: pastorshelper@yahoo.com Message: Vic, I'm sorry, but you are extremely misguided and misinformed on this issue. I, for one, will promote any organization/event that calls us to unity based on the Lordship of Christ. Perhaps, rather than tearing down, you should begin to build up and encourage the body? In Christ, Barry

Subject: Re: Reject 'Promise Keepers' From: Vic Eagle To: Barry Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 17:44:40 (EDT) Email Address: roost7@hotmail.com Message: Barry, You have not refuted any of the indicting information I gave about PK, nor can you, because it's all in the public domain. Anyone can easily examine it for themselves. The Scriptures I cited call us to reject unconditional unity. Since this is a Biblical principle, it can only build up and encourage the body of Christ, not tear it down. In Jesus, Vic

Subject: Re: Reject 'Promise Keepers' From: Barry To: Vic Eagle Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 08, 1999 at 19:31:54 (EDT) Email Address: pastorshelper@yahoo.com Message: Vic, I did not, nor do I need to, refute anything. I read no indicting information in your post, only a gross misunderstanding of scripture. The Promise Keepers have done more to promote godly values and return to the Lordship of Jesus Christ than any movement in modern history. I believe God called Bill McCartney to found this ministry and that God is in it through and through. Are they perfect? No. Are there things they can improve on? Of course. But to try to say they are anti-Christian is a far cry from the truth. I uphold any movement/group/fellowship/church that calls us to repentance and the Lordship of Jesus Christ. In Christ, Barry

Subject: Re: Reject 'Promise Keepers' From: Vic Eagle To: Barry Date Posted: Fri, Jul 09, 1999 at 15:50:26 (EDT) Email Address: roost7@hotmail.com Message: Barry, You said I have a gross misunderstanding of Scripture, but you didn't explain exactly why. You did not deal with any of the points about making promises, ecumenism, false brothers, fellowship, or the websites I listed. I suppose that by the world's standards, you really don't have to, but your stubbornness and lack of concern is diametrically opposed to the Bible. In Jesus, Vic

Subject: Re: Reject 'Promise Keepers' From: Marc LeBlanc To: Vic Eagle Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 08, 1999 at 11:18:42 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Perhaps the group should change their name to 'Men of prayer and worship, faithful to Jesus, who genuinely intend to serve God and love their neighbors'. Saying that the title 'Promise Keepers' is contradictory to the Bible is like saying that Wisconsin is condemned because it contains the suffix 'sin'. However, I have similar concerns to yours Vic, but I still go to Promise Keepers meetings because I love to eat donuts with the guys. It also gives me a good chance to share my faith in Jesus with the group. I love them very much. It is entirely possible that men who are genuinely committed to Christ and genuinely interested in Scripture come to different conclusions in some areas. As all this pertains the Jesus' Words to love God with all we've got and to love others, and to be gentle as doves and to even pray for our enemies...well, in this context, there's really not so many barriers except our willingness to serve Him in faith. Touching someone with the Love of God is not going to put you at odds with the Lord. I'm not asking you to do something that contradicts the Bible, but think about the people around you, those who need refreshing in Christ, and those who need the Lord. Pray about Promise Keepers. There is only one bride for Christ in all the world. Jesus, He knows who's got their wedding dress ready. I hope this helps. In Jesus, brother Marc <'}}}><

Subject: Re: Reject 'Promise Keepers' From: Vic Eagle To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 08, 1999 at 16:12:23 (EDT) Email Address: roost7@hotmail.com Message: Marc, It's a subversive movement by any name. What they're doing is just plain wrong. PK's leaders are wolves in sheeps' clothing. The Bible says have nothing to do with the works of unrighteousness. Interpretation of the Bible is either right or wrong. There are no shades of gray. We are not supposed to do bad things so that good things will result. To be in fellowship, Christians must share the same beliefs. It isn't an option. The problem isn't just between you and me, it's also between you and God. I pray that you and others involved with PK will repent and renounce it. In Jesus, Vic

Subject: Re: Reject 'Promise Keepers' From: Given O. Blakely To: Vic Eagle Date Posted: Fri, Jul 09, 1999 at 03:17:16 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: Brother Vic, I have been a serious student of God's word for more than 50 years. I do not recall ever reading the word 'beliefs' in Scripture. Both belief and faith are always in the singular, and the object of our faith is always specified as God and Christ Jesus. Faith, not beliefs, is the basis for unity. That is why it is called 'the unity of the faith' (Eph 4:13). All of the commandments are summarized in two statements--'And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment' (1 John 3:23). I trust you are not suggesting this is not an adequate starting point. Further, the Spirit affirms, 'Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth Him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of Him' (1 John 5:1). Unless you are prepared to prove that no member of the Promise Keepers has been begotten of God, I am afraid you have gotten yourself in some serious trouble. Those who have fellowship are not required to all have the same beliefs--or, to state it more precisely, to see things exactly alike. Our aim is to have 'the same mind, and to speak the same thing' (1 Cor 1:10). However, that is not speaking of a mythical belief system, but of spiritual focus. The very notion that we are required to 'have the same beliefs' is so absurd, it should not be necessary to say anything about it. If this erroneous postulate were true, how could we have fellowship with Christ Jesus? After all, we have been called into that fellowship (1 Cor 1:9). Or are you prepared to say you see everything exactly as Jesus does? I do not believe you would make such a claim--but if you did, you would not be telling the truth. How is it that Jesus can have fellowship with you, even when there are serious matters of disagreement between you? And if you expect Jesus to have fellowship with you, and help you through any difficulties of understanding you may have, how is it you would withhold such fellowship from another believer. You must know, brother Vic, that God will judge you with precisely the same kind of judgment you have leveled at others (Matt 7:2). If you want mercy from your Lord, you had best be about extending it to others--whether you agree with them or not. Because if you do not show mercy, you will not receive it--and it is just that cut and dried. Jesus once said, 'he that is not against us is for us.' It is interesting that He said this to His disciples after they had forbidden a man to cast out demons, because he was not with them--and they were with Jesus (Lk 9:49-50). Are you prepared to say that every single person associated with Promise Keepers is against Christ, and not for Him? Jesus addressed a church that had a serious and influential false teacher in it. Yet, He did not withdraw from that church, but sought to influence those remaining tender to Him (Rev 2:20-24). The Epistles dealt with serious misunderstandings that existed in the early church. The Corinthians had some who did not believe the dead are raised (1 Cor 15:12), and others who did not know there is only one God (1 Cor 8:6-7). The Roman brethren had some among them that thought they could only eat herbs (Rom 14:2-5). The Ephesian church had some within it that stole (Eph 4:28), and the Galatians were reverting back to law and thereby falling from grace (Gal 5:4). Yet, these people were never disowned, or treated as though they were unworthy of fellowship. In fact, that was the means chosen to bring them higher. You have been hard on the Promise Keepers, brother Vic. I do not condone everything they say, and know of no person who does. But I do condone what they say about Jesus, and I do condone the desires for Jesus that is kindled among them. However, I have a strong feeling that you are not as close to the Lord, or as knowledgeable of Him and His ways, as you have represented. Perhaps I am wrong, but I am still going to call you to a more godly frame of mind. God is not looking for a reason to condemn people. If He were, you already know what our lot would be. And if He is not looking to condemn, but rather to save, I suggest it is on the part of wisdom for you to do the same. Now, let's start seasoning your speech with grace so it can do some good (Col 4:6). Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: Reject 'Promise Keepers' From: Vic Eagle To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Fri, Jul 09, 1999 at 16:16:51 (EDT) Email Address: roost7@hotmail.com Message: Given, Please don't call me your brother because I don't know you and am not in agreement with you. There are many errors and problems with what you said. Beliefs essentially constitute doctrines, etc. as mentioned in: 1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus, in order that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 1 Timothy 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, Titus 3:9 But shun foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law; for they are unprofitable and worthless. (NASB) Titus 3:10-11 goes on to say that if you correct someone but they will not listen, to have nothing more to do with them. We have to go with what we know. If I know something is wrong, the Bible commands me to address it. I am not supposed to sweep it under the carpet or ignore it. In Revelation 2, the false teacher was recognized and corrected and rebuked, but that is not occurring in PK. Likewise with the other NT churches you mentioned. You equate correcting, rebuking, and breaking fellowship with condemnation, which none of them is. In Jesus, Vic

Subject: Re: Reject 'Promise Keepers' From: Given O. Blakely To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Fri, Jul 09, 1999 at 20:25:54 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: Mr. Eagle, So you only permit people to call you 'brother' whom you personally know? That is a most interesting approach to things. Just how many people are included in this circle of 'brethren?' No one with a love for the truth has any difficulty opposing, and strenuously so, the propogation of false doctrine. However, you delivered a diatribe against the entire constituency of that movement, lumping everyone together into one. This is not the manner of Jesus or the Apostles. Where there was genuine faith, they recognized it--even in Sardius and Thyatira. I am going to ask you again to season your speech with grace--like the Lord tells you to do. Incidentally, which of these false teachers have you personally admonished, in keeping with the Word of the Lord. What was their response? Please share that with us. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: Reject 'Promise Keepers' From: Vic Eagle To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Sat, Jul 10, 1999 at 13:08:02 (EDT) Email Address: roost7@hotmail.com Message: Given, I'm only comfortable with people calling me 'brother' as my faith permits. I have no set-in-stone rule about it. I am not in much of a fellowhship, if that's what you meant by 'circle of brethren.' What difference does it make how large it is? What's the total number of people Jesus himself was in fellowship with? It was a small number. There is no excuse for anyone being involved with the works of darkness. God will hold everyone involved with PK accountable. We are commanded to test the spirits according to the Word to help determine whether they have genuine faith. I've never been in fellowship with PK's leaders or teachers, and according to the Scriptures I cited (like 2 John 1: 9-10) I don't seem to be obligated to personally confront them. However, I am obligated to expose them (Ephesians 5:11). In Jesus, Vic

Subject: Re: Reject 'Promise Keepers' From: ecclesiastes To: Vic Eagle Date Posted: Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 16:31:44 (EDT) Email Address: acts238@usa.net Message: vic, Your wasting your time, Don't wrangle about words. You have already warned a factious person more than twice. Go on and find some lost soul to share Christ with. Keep your head up and fight the good fight of the faith. I can't judge Bill McGartney (?) since i don't know his heart. But i know i wouldn't trust him with my football program unless I wanted someone to recruit hoodlooms and break ncaa rules.

Subject: Re: Reject 'Promise Keepers' From: Given O. Blakely To: Vic Eagle Date Posted: Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 12:07:26 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: Vic, it makes a very big difference how large your circle of fellowship is. It must be no smaller than our blessed Lord's. If we love Him who beget us, we will love those who are begotten of Him. You nor I are at liberty to withhold fellowship from anyone God has received. You are familiar with the Word of the Lord, and there are numerous people the Lord has received who are something less than perfect in their understanding. They are in the process of being conformed to the image of His Son. We receive you on the same basis. In Jesus, Brother Given

Subject: I NEED YOUR HELP AND QUICKLY! From: Lucy To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 01:56:12 (EDT) Email Address: in the sky with diamonds Message: I have a friend, 'Sophie', who is depressed and suicidal right now. It gets much worse from here . . . She has also lost her faith in Christianity and lives in another part of the country. I can't do much to help her except to be a friend and offer some advice. I don't really know what she believes in now, so religious advice needs to wait a little so that I can analyze the situation. Can someone please help me in dealing with this situation? I don't know what to do. Even if you can't give me any sound advice please put both me and Sophie in your prayers. It will be much appreciated. Pax Christi Lucy

Subject: There is *always* hope From: Vic Eagle To: Lucy Date Posted: Tues, Jul 06, 1999 at 17:22:24 (EDT) Email Address: roost7@hotmail.com Message: Lucy, I am praying for 'Sophie' and God can help solve her problems, even through a miracle. God has done miracles for me when nobody could help. I also think Sophie should ask God for a very specific, private sign (like a certain bird, rainbow, voice, or anything) to give her hope and encourage her faith. It may not come immediately. Sometimes when things looked very bad, God has given me (and some others I know) surprisingly meaningful and encouraging signs. In Jesus, Vic

Subject: Towel-N-Basin Christian Church From: Roger L. Wever To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 01:18:56 (EDT) Email Address: gr8god4u@aol.com Message: Our ministry team to plant this congregation at Lake Tahoe, NV is coming together as the Lord draws them to this place. We have over 100 prayer warriors for this effort. We are now in need of over 100 stewardship warriors to help cover relocation expenses for the ministry team, to purchase basic sound equipment, to rent space for fellowship/teaching/worship, to send out a mailing to 26,000 mail recepticles. Let us know if you have and are willing to share resources to accomplish the task of 'drawing all men unto himself' with us.

Subject: Is smoking a sin? From: Bill T. To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 17:02:33 (EDT) Email Address: TheHHF@aol.com Message: My question is, 'Is smoking a sin?' Bible references would be helpful, thank you.

Subject: Re: Is smoking a sin? From: Roger L. Wever To: Bill T. Date Posted: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 01:02:17 (EDT) Email Address: gr8god4u@aol.com Message: My question is, 'Is smoking a sin?' Bible references would be helpful, thank you. --- It would sure be nice if 'Thou shall not smoke.' Hezekiah 5:5 were a part of God's Word, but it's not; yet there are other passages which are general stewardship principles which cover a host of unmentionables throughout His Word. Search the Scriptures: 'Your body is temple of Holy Spirit' Avoid polluting it with questionable practices can be a blessing to many encountered. Hope this helps you get started on your journey of discovery. In His Love, Roger

Subject: Re: Is smoking a sin? From: Given O. Blakely To: Bill T. Date Posted: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 22:34:25 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: The Word of God does not say smoking is a sin. That is one of those things each person must decide for himself. It does say some things that assist the individual in making a choice that will honor God. (1) Whatever we do it to be done in the name of the LORD, giving thanks to God (Col 3:17). Smoking, then, must be done in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to Him. (2) Whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:23). This particular text deals with the conscience. It teaches that no person can do unto the Lord what they doubt is right. The persuasion of faith must accompany what they do. The person who smokes must do so with a good conscience, determined to honor God by it. (3) Our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, God is to be honored in our bodies (1 Cor 6:19-20). Although the particular sin of this passage is fornication, it does state a principle of spiritual life. Because our bodies were purchased by Jesus, He is to be honored by them. If a person would not mind a picture of Jesus with a cigaret or cigar in his mouth, then he probably could see nothing wrong with smoking. (4) Whatever overcomes a person makes him a slave to it (2 Pet 2:19). Enslavement takes various forms. One can be a slave to false teaching, sin in general, or even a particular sin, like drunkenness. If a person can be overcome by smoking, becoming enslaved to it, it would be wrong. The answers to most of these things are quite obvious to some of us. Others, however, have difficulty seeing any correlation between these texts and smoking. There is, however, a solemn obligation laid upon every individual to see to it they honor God in whatever they say or do, keep their bodies undefiled, and do nothing that does not easily blend with their walk with the Lord. That puts the matter squarely in the lap of every person. The decision to smoke of not to smoke is not one to be imposed by one person upon another. Rather, it is another area where we 'work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling' (Phil 2:12-13). Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: Is smoking a sin? From: preacher To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 23:04:51 (EDT) Email Address: acts238@usa.net Message: that is a wimpish reply. You know better. What would Jesus say? Smoking is one of the most harmful things you can do to your body. I don't even answer such stupid questions anymore. Don't answer a fool according to his folly. Would to God that someone would of told my father it was a sin before it was too late. Now he fights for his life. Jesus rode on a camel he didn't smoke one. Come on preacher, people are reading these things. Be a man.

Subject: Matthew 12:31-32 From: Marc LeBlanc To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 16:32:22 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, Jesus said: 'Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.' Can anyone help me understand this verse? I honestly don't know what this means: '...but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come...' I would like some help with this. << God, give us Spiritual Understanding. In Jesus' Name! >> Love and prayers in Jesus, brother Marc <'}}}><

Subject: Re: Matthew 12:31-32 From: Given O. Blakely To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 12:03:35 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: The text certainly confirms that all sin is not the same, as some imagine. Our Lord does not precisely define this sin--or state that it is a specific action or deed. It is not something that can be done inadvertently, accidently, or ignorantly. It is a condition that is deliberate, driven by a hardened heart and a hatred for truth and the Lord. Our Lord's words were occasioned by the charge that He cast our demons by the power of Beelzebub, a term applied to Satan (Matt 12:24). The Scriptures do not say Jesus heard what the opponents (the Pharisees) SAID, although He may well have done so. Rather, we are told, 'And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them . . . ' (Matt 12:25-32). He then unveiled the absurdity of thinking Satan would fight against himself by empowering anyone to cast out demons. Demons are not the only spirit with which men must contend. There is also the Holy Spirit, who strives with men (Gen 6:3), convicts them (John 16:8-11), and opens the words of Jesus (John 16:13-15). Those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit repudiate His influences and degrade His Person. They are so calloused to His Presence that they deride Him like Pharaoh did God (Ex 5:2). There is a line man can cross that makes his situation utterly hopeless, God has not identified that line, and we are out or line trying to identify it. However, He knows where it is. Once crossed, the person's state becomes 'worse' that it ever was before (2 Pet 2:20). It is a condition from which recovery is not possible (Heb 6:4-6). This state is reached by refusing to give heed to the Spirit, choosing rather to quench and grieve Him (1 Thess 5:19; Eph 4:30). Eventually, the point comes where the person becomes so hard and so calloused that even the Spirit of God cannot convict them. Such people are pictured as blaspheming against God even when He pours terrible judgments upon them (Rev 9:20; 16:9,11). Those who 'draw back,' refusing to yield to the convincing power of the Spirit, are moving into a dreadful condition. Unless their backward movement and hard hearts are corrected, they will move into the realm where they willingly blaspheme against the Spirit, repudiating everything holy. Such people are said to be 'reprobate' (Jer 6:30; 2 Tim 3:8; 2 Cor 13:5), with no hope of recovery. Judas was such a man. If Jesus had identified the point at which this sin takes place, unthoughtful men would have lived as close to it as they could, thinking they could avoid it through sheer will power. However, when we take Jesus' word seriously, we will not tamper with our souls, refuse His Word, or wander aimlessly in forbidden territories. Any transgression has the potential of leading into the sin which never has forgiveness. No child of God is promised they can dabble in transgression without becoming insensitive to God and placing themselves in danger. The sin that can never be forgiven is the result of hardening the heart, resisting the Spirit, and repeatedly refusing Christ Jesus. No man knows when it occurs, but God does. One further thing. No person who is concerned about having committed this sin has committed it. Their concern reveals they are still sensitive to God, and their conscience is not 'seared' (1 Tim 4:2).

Subject: Re: Matthew 12:31-32 From: crystal To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 21:34:58 (EDT) Email Address: cwhitmor@bellsouth.net Message: In Revelation, the beast is given a 'mouth' to speak *great things* and *blasphemies* against God. Would these words be both good and evil? (Re.garden of eden) Who gives the beast the mouth to speak? Where is Satan's throne? His power and authority? The only place that Satan seeks to kill and destroy the 'seed' of the woman (Israel) is in the churches. He is the abomination that causes desolation. As Satan already has 'the world', he seeks out to kill and destroy through the voice of the false prophet; which is within the churches. Those who 'think to do' God a service, and do not test the spirits to see if they are of God, will fall prey to the captor at his will. They are 'caused' to worship the beast and his image due to their lust, and wantonness, their self-will instead of the will of God. (2Th. - son of perdition). One must remember that Satan is not a human but is the spirit of Antichrist. Just as Christ has a body with many members, so also Satan has a many membered body. 'Legion' may fit the category of numbering. The 'beast' is the 'creature' and not the 'creator'. Which, if recalling the condition of the Pharisee's, and their teaching as doctrine the commandments of men; and as they also were referred to by Jesus as 'sons of God', re. 'have I not called ye God's?' These then, also of Abraham's seed, but uncircumcised in heart, as a body of people, were thoe Christ referred to as of 'the synagogue of Satan'. Here then, we see the faux appearance of righteousness, for they worshiped the 'creature'(themselves) and not the 'creator', God. These were the condition of men then, and this the condition of men now - some good and some evil. Some the sons of God and some the sons of perdition. You have thus met the 'beast' within us. hope this sheds some light on the subject.

Subject: Re: Matthew 12:31-32 From: Marc LeBlanc To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 17:03:40 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Thank you much brother Given for your reply. This answers my question. God is awesome! Praise be to Him! In Jesus Name! In Jesus Christ, brother Marc <'}}}><

Subject: Can you lose your salvation??? From: Bill T. To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 02:46:50 (EDT) Email Address: TheHHF@aol.com Message: Hello to all, I have yet another question about salvation. Can you lose it? This is one I struggle with. Thanks for your time on this. In Christ, Bill Thompson

Subject: Re: Can you lose your salvation??? From: Lucy To: Bill T. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 01, 1999 at 18:31:15 (EDT) Email Address: johndoe@somewhere.com Message: My views on salvation are quite complicated, but I will attempt to answer this. Generally speaking, I believe a person can lose thier salvation. The Lord says that we must repent of our sins and that we must be obediant to Him. Christ reconciled us to the Father and He gives us many choices to stay in a State of Grace. Although I cannot defend my stance very well I know of one who could, Arminius. I highly advise you to read this man's works, he will show you much better than I ever could why men can lose thier salvation.

Subject: Re: Can you lose your salvation??? From: Roger L. Wever To: Bill T. Date Posted: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 01:05:51 (EDT) Email Address: gr8god4u@aol.com Message: Hello to all, I have yet another question about salvation. Can you lose it? This is one I struggle with. Thanks for your time on this. In Christ, Bill Thompson --- Read Hebrews chapters 6 & 10. God's Word is quite clear. These passages demonstrate to me that a struggle on this issue is not really a necessary reality.

Subject: Re: Can you lose your 'rescue'??? From: Samuel To: Bill T. Date Posted: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 12:53:09 (EDT) Email Address: samhuffman27@hotmail.com Message: Hello, Bill. Samuel here. Sometimes understanding comes when we skirt trying to get a theological answer, and instead seek for a real-life practical answer. I mentioned in earlier postings that instead of using the term 'saved' which to masses of people means a ticket to heaven when they die, you may want to use a different term. Try 'rescued' or 'delivered from the sinful evil'. Instead of asking 'am I saved?' ask 'have I been rescued, delivered from the sin that was destroying my life? Has the same spirit that raised Messiah from the realm of the dead entered into me and made me new?' If you confess with your mouth Jesus as lord (ie. risen master who has freed you from the lordship of the temptor) and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you will be saved (rescued, delivered)...' Bill, this activates in a believer's life now, not just is the sweet by and by. Believers have been freed from their previous oppressive lord (the devil), and have now come under the lordship of the one who has been raised in victory over sin and death. Messiah Jesus. This free gift from Jehovah our God is for believers...not doubters, fakers, or quitters. The baptist sect has a good expression called 'eternal security of the believer'. I've told people over the years that they are just as eternally secure as the risen one in whom they put their trust. The one who has freed you from sin, the power of the satan. This eternal security is for the actual believers only. Not for the doubters, make-believers, or quitters. Believers are secure. Their 'rescue' is a gift from their God, and He stands by those whom He has freed from sin, 'rescued', 'delivered' from the power of the enemy. Bill, I've tried to avoid giving a theological answer which often tends just to spawn debates and conter-debates. Broken drug atticts, shattered prostitutes, and people whose lives are crippled by thier sins aren't interested in a 'ticket' to heaven when they die. They need 'rescue' now. This was the type of people who flocked after Jesus and the apostles seeking to be saved (rescued) from the satanic sin that was tormenting them. The scholarly theologians, on the other hand, just tried to discredit and get rid of Messiah and his apostles. The common uneducated people, though, believed the message of the kingdom and were saved (rescued). So here's the question, Bill. Do you know personally that the same divine spirit that raised Messiah Jesus from the world of the dead has come into you and made you a new person, right and clean with the God of Israel? I'm asking this, Bill, because I know that many others will read this comment as well as you. I've had several people who have read my comments about the power of Messiah's resurrection, and have e-mailed me with more questions. It often seems that being 'born-again' by the spirit that has now raised Jesus from the world of the dead (and revived his body, too) has just been a topic of bible debate for them, and not a personal reality. They were still searching, analyzing, debating,...not yet believing. 'Believers' are secure. Their 'rescue' is a free gift from their God whom they trust and believe, and to whom they cling. Wishy-washers, pretenders, and quitters are still in grave jeopardy. Samuel. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: Re: Can you lose your salvation??? From: Given O. Blakely To: Bill T. Date Posted: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 21:22:23 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: Salvation cannot be 'lost.' Nor, indeed, can anyone take it from us. That does not mean, however, that we are locked into salvation when we enter Christ. Salvation is obtained and maintained by faith, and faith must be fed and maintained. At the point a person ceases to believe, he ceases to possess salvation, for we are saved 'by grace through faith' (Eph 2:8-10). A person can make 'shipwreck of their faith,' dashing it upon the rocks of neglect and indifference (1 Tim 1:19). The faith must be 'kept' until the end (2 Tim 4:7). Jesus spoke of some who believed 'for a while' (Lk 8:13). They got off to a good start, but did not 'go on to perfection' (Heb 6:1). That is why God says, 'Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul' (Heb 10:38-39). All of this does not mean we are in and out of salvation. Faith is the victory that overcomes the world, although it sometimes grows faint and even weary (1 John 5:4-5). As long as the individual IS believing, there is nothing in heaven, earth, or under the earth that can separate the individual from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:36-39). If, however, faith is neglected, and one ceases to believe and trust in the Lord, ones grip on salvation becomes loose. Every one who IS believing is safe. Everyone who is NOT now believing is in danger of rejection by the Lord. Eternal life, it must be remembered, is knowing god and the Lord Jesus Christ--knowing them intimately and personally (John 17:3; 1 John 5:20). Salvation is as secure as our knowledge of, or involvement with, the Lord by faith. In Jesus, Brother Given

Subject: Re: Can you lose your salvation??? From: brick To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Tues, Jul 13, 1999 at 17:35:52 (EDT) Email Address: rcbricker@netzero.net Message: If you were given a million dollars would you be wondering if you could loose it or would you be wondering how to use it. I am more concerned about how to use my salvation in service to God than the treat of loosing it. USE IT AND YOU WILL NOT LOOSE IT.

Subject: Re: Can you lose your salvation??? From: Bud To: brick Date Posted: Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 13:40:27 (EDT) Email Address: Bud@philosophers.net Message: brick, In light of Y2K, many people ARE wondering if they can and will lose their money. :-) I suppose the question is: Are there any potential 'Y2K bugs' in the salvation process? Peace, Bud

Subject: Re: Can you lose your salvation??? From: brick To: Bud Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 29, 1999 at 06:40:41 (EDT) Email Address: acts238@usa.net Message: Not on God's part.But many like Demas, are 'bugged' by the love of the world.

Subject: What's the Devil?? From: Robert Tewart To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 06:20:43 (EDT) Email Address: . Message: My five year old came up to me yesterday and asked me 'daddy, what's the devil?' I told her to let me look at my bible and tell her. I want to be truthful but sensitive to a five year old mind. Any suggestions?

Subject: Re: What's the Devil?? From: Roger L. Wever To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 01:08:24 (EDT) Email Address: gr8god4u@aol.com Message: My five year old came up to me yesterday and asked me 'daddy, what's the devil?' I told her to let me look at my bible and tell her. I want to be truthful but sensitive to a five year old mind. Any suggestions? --- The Devil is an angel who is fallen; a Fallen Angel.

Subject: Re: What's the Devil?? From: Given O. Blakely To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 15:04:49 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: First, it is not 'WHAT is the devil?' but 'WHO is the devil?' He is a person, like God is a person. God is the ultimate Holy One, and Satan is the ultimate wicked one. He is not a human, but influences humans. The Bible says from the beginning, the devil has sinned (1 John 3:8). The words 'the beginning' refer to the the beginning of this world, as indicated in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1. Little is known about the devil before 'the beginning.' Enough is said so that we know he fell from a lofty position (Isaiah 14:12-16; Ezekiel 28:13-17). So far as your daughter is concerned, the devil tempts us to sin, trying to make us think we will be better off by doing something God has forbidden, or not doing something He has told us to do. Satan is also the father of all lies (John 8:44). He is the one who promotes sin. Only Jesus has defeated the devil, and only through Him can we resist the devil. Young children must be encouraged to associate sin with the devil, and sinning with giving in to the devil. They must also be taught that when they refuse to sin they have overcome the devil by God's grace. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: What's the Devil?? From: Samuel To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 12:04:04 (EDT) Email Address: samhuffman27@hotmail.com Message: Hello, Robert. Samuel here. About a year ago I was explaining the 'devil' at the home of some friends of mine, and their 6 year old son said, 'Sam, do mean that the devil doesn't have horns?!!!' This little boy had obviously been taught the standardized religious illusions and traditions just as I had been as a boy. His eyes spread and his mouth gawked in surprise. He had been sucessfully taught a lie, and had believed it. So how was I describing the 'devil' to this child and his parents? Simply this; and if it seems a bit detailed for a child to grasp, it isn't. More likely it's too detailed for the 'adults' to grasp... For his parents' benefit I shared that the Greek word translated 'devil' was a legal term used in law cases. It means a slanderer, a false accuser. Although it is sometimes capitialized in our English bibles, it isn't a name. It's a descriptive legal term in the mind of the new testament writers. Likewise the word 'satan' is a legal term meaning 'an adversary'. It's not a name. It's a descriptive legal term. For the benefit of the boy, I asked if he had ever walked into his mom's kitchen and smelled cookies baking, or if he had ever smelled onions when she was cooking them. I described that just as a 'smell' or a 'fragrance' has no particular form or shape but is an invisible presence all around you, so is the presence of the 'devil' spirit. It is a shapeless, formeless, faceless spirit presence in the air around us that constantly nudges us to disobey Jehovah God's laws and commands. It is an 'adversary' to what is right and pure in Father's eyes. It has no horns, hooves, or pentagrams. It is a 'spirit' presence, like the wind. 'The prince of the powers of the air.' For his parents' benefit I used the example of walking into a room full of fragrant flowers and enjoying the smell. Then after a bit you start to get a headache, then dizzy, then faint or worse. No one warned you that the sweet smell was a deceptive mask to cover odorless carbon monoxide, a poisinous gas. The little boy caught on to that illustration. A deceptive fragrance covering a poison gas. He understood what I was saying. His parents saws that that illustration had clicked with him. They also realized that they had been teaching a deception in their Sunday School classes without having realized it. They had been teaching the traditions of man. No shape, no form, no face. A spirit presence intent on confusing the realm of diety (kijngdom of our God). Thankfully we have a much superior spirit who give us guidance. That's Jehovah our God's own divine spirit dwelling within us. the same spirit that has now raised Jesus the hebrew prophet and messiah from the realm of the dead, and raised his body as well. Twice alive! Well, Robert, I hope this helps. Remember that Jesus and Father are not theologians. Tthey can give a child understanding which baffles the scholarly adults. Samuel. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: Re: What's the Devil?? From: Vic Eagle To: Samuel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 18:25:38 (EDT) Email Address: roost7@hotmail.com Message: Samuel, I think Satan can take on different, visible forms if he wants to. In fact, I have seen demons a couple of times. One time I was walking in the woods in back of a friend's house when I felt an eerie presence and soon noticed a little 'man' sitting under a tree not too far away. He was probably only about 4 or 5 ft. tall, and his clothes were entirely gray with a small, round gray hat. I could see a pudgy, flesh-toned face but no features. He reminded me of tales of leprechauns and fairies. I immediately throught it was demon and was a little frightened so I prayed to God for protection. A couple seconds later, it waved to me and I sort of waved back. Then I walked off, praying to God for protection and turning around to make sure it wasn't coming after me. In Jesus, Vic

Subject: Re: What's the Devil?? From: Marc LeBlanc To: Samuel Date Posted: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 14:52:23 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: > No shape, no form, no face. Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Subject: Book: Fresh Wind Fresh Fire From: Robert Tewart To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 10:52:13 (EDT) Email Address: . Message: I also started reading Jim Cymbala's book, 'Fresh Wind Fresh Fire.' It's about the Brooklyn Tabernacle and it's tremendous growth and blessings. Pretty good so far. Anyone else read this one?.....Given?......Marc?

Subject: Re: Book: Fresh Wind Fresh Fire From: Marc LeBlanc To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 15:34:43 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Greetings brother Robert, I did not read that book yet. Have you read anything by Max Lucado? Love and prayers in Jesus Christ, brother Marc <'}}}><

Subject: Re: Book: Fresh Wind Fresh Fire From: Robert To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 06:30:41 (EDT) Email Address: . Message: No Marc, I haven't. But I plan to.

Subject: Re: Book: Fresh Wind Fresh Fire From: Marc LeBlanc To: Robert Date Posted: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 11:15:11 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: No Marc, I haven't. But I plan to. --- Hi brother Robert, Would you like to do a book exchange? When you finish your book and I finish mine, we could swap...Just a thought... In Christ, brother Marc <'}}}><

Subject: Romans From: Robert Tewart To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 06:34:55 (EDT) Email Address: . Message: I am starting a study on Romans. Any suggestions or insights? Robert

Subject: Re: Romans From: Marc To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 10:57:38 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: I am starting a study on Romans. Any suggestions or insights? Robert --- Hi brother Robert, I pray for you that the Lord would give you spiritual understanding and that He would help you along throughout the study. Love and prayers in Jesus, brother Marc <'}}}><

Subject: Re: Romans From: Given O. Blakely To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 14:28:16 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: First, get the text into your heart and mind -- without any other filters (commentaries, footnotes, doctrinal positions, etc.). Make every effort to avoid fitting it into theological positions to which you may have been subjected. It is the Word itself that is 'living and powerful' (Heb 4:12), not the views even good and holy men have of it. As with all Scripture, look for the Lord, and what He is declared to have accomplished. Do not try and understand every verse at first -- make every effort to get the overall picture. Ask the Lord to give you understanding of the text. You will have a most rewarding experience. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Bible Copyrights From: Marc LeBlanc To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 10:06:22 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Do you know of any 'Public Domain' Bible versions other than the King James Version? In French or English or any other language? The purpose of this is to be able to distribute the Word electronically. For now I've put up a web page and database for this purpose using the King James Bible. I haven't heard that this is wrong. I think it's a great tool. It's helped my wife and I tremendously. You can reach this page by following this link: http://www.friendshipletter.com/scripture.html In Jesus, brother Marc <'}}}><

Subject: Star Wars From: Bill T. To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 00:59:25 (EDT) Email Address: TheHHF@aol.com Message: Is it wrong for Christians to watch Star Wars? I've heard both sides of the argument. What do you think? In Christ, Bill Thompson

Subject: Re: Star Wars From: Given O. Blakely To: Bill T. Date Posted: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 15:16:12 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: This is an area of conscience, in which one believer cannot dictate to another one. Each one has a personal view of the matter--but that is precisely what it is, a PERSONAL view. On matters like this, the Scriptures affirm, 'Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind' (Rom 14:5). In that particular text he was speaking of matters regarding eating meat and the observance of specific days. Both were matters of conscience, not revelation. The Lord asks you to do whatever you to before Him, always aware of His eye being upon you (Col 3:17). That is intensely personal, and we must keep it just that way. If, in the process, our minds are contrary to the mind of the Lord, and IF we maintain a good conscience, the Word says, 'if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you' (Phil 3:15). All of us must be willing to depend upon that taking place. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: Star Wars From: Marc LeBlanc To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 10:03:01 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: This is an area of conscience, in which one believer cannot dictate to another one. Each one has a personal view of the matter--but that is precisely what it is, a PERSONAL view. On matters like this, the Scriptures affirm, 'Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind' (Rom 14:5). In that particular text he was speaking of matters regarding eating meat and the observance of specific days. Both were matters of conscience, not revelation. The Lord asks you to do whatever you to before Him, always aware of His eye being upon you (Col 3:17). That is intensely personal, and we must keep it just that way. If, in the process, our minds are contrary to the mind of the Lord, and IF we maintain a good conscience, the Word says, 'if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you' (Phil 3:15). All of us must be willing to depend upon that taking place. Given O. Blakely --- Good morning, I'm sorry, I apologize for my previous post. Thank you for your post. Love and prayers in Jesus, brother Marc <'}}}><

Subject: Re: Star Wars From: Marc LeBlanc To: Bill T. Date Posted: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 10:22:58 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Is it wrong for Christians to watch Star Wars? I've heard both sides of the argument. What do you think? In Christ, Bill Thompson --- Hi brother Bill, Forgive me for sending a blank e-mail. I was very hesitant to reply to this question. I read it twice and canceled the reply. I once asked on a Christian list what people thought of TV watching... I got many many responses. Some in the order of 'I don't watch TV or movies at all...' Some of these posts I wanted to reply with this: 'Dear brother Pharisee, what other sin have you not committed?' Moving on...The question gives me spiritual malaise. I love to watch movies and I intend to see Star Wars. I just am constantly making efforts to control the amount of TV I watch and I also refrain from certain types of movies. I've tried using my free times to hobby on better things. These days, I spend much time in the garden. My wife and I both love to do this. We also replaced much of our TV watching for reading bed time stories (right now we're reading Max Lucado) because both of us agree that most of what we can get on our antenna is not good. I can't praise Him after watching violence. On the other hand brother, when I get a glimpse of God's unending love, I want to praise Him. I find my heart signing like a canary. I love God and I know He loves me and I want to please Him. For now that involves moving on, pressing on and I feel some types of TV watching and movies are often a in the way. . . I didn't answer your question. :-) Ok. No, I can't encourage you to watch Star Wars. I'm sorry. Whenever I see a movie of this type, I feel I've sinned. Yet, I am very curious about seeing it myself. Forgive me I sound like a hypocrite. Love and prayers in Jesus Christ, brother Marc <'}}}><

Subject: Re: Star Wars From: Marc LeBlanc To: Bill T. Date Posted: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 10:07:40 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Is it wrong for Christians to watch Star Wars? I've heard both sides of the argument. What do you think? In Christ, Bill Thompson ---

Subject: His Hand, His Feet, His People From: Roger L. Wever To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 16:19:54 (EDT) Email Address: gr8god4u@aol.com Message: Awaiting His provision financially for His call upon me to develop a ministry team to plant Towel-N-Basin Christian Church. The team is slowly being raised up. There are lots of people encouraging, praying; yet very few are being faithful in supporting via their pocketbook, but this is common occurance which breaks my heart. Thanks for being there brothers and sisters as I experience the growing pains of depending more on the Lord in this passionate project of expanding God's kingdom. Thanks for listening.

Subject: The Love Prayer From: Marc LeBlanc To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 15:11:33 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Let Jesus come into your heart. Open your hands to someone. Vanquish idleness and Extend yourself to someone today. Brother Marc <'}}}>< May, 1999

Subject: New snip: What is this about? From: Marc LeBlanc To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 19, 1999 at 16:50:54 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: I found this news snip on the JVIM web site (http://www.jvim.com/cgi-bin/update.cgi). Some of the news published there seems far fetched. This one I don't understand, but I am very curious. Can someone explain? TEMPLE MOUNT FAITHFUL CLAIM CONFIRMATION OF WATER FLOWING FROM TEMPLE MOUNT ROCK May 19, 1999 Publications from the group known as the Temple Mount Faithful in Jerusalem, who are set on laying the cornerstone of the Third Jewish Temple in Israel, reported this week that supposedly it has been verified that water has begun flowing from the holy rock of Abraham and Isaac on the Temple Mount which was in the midst of the First and Second Temples. They say, however, that Muslim authorities who control the Temple Mount area have denied the report and have even unsuccessfully attempted to stop the flow of water. The report said: 'This special news has caused much excitement in Israel. Since the destruction of the Second Temple the Jewish People have anticipated this event with great desire and prayers because we always knew that this would be one of the signs of the last days and the redemption of Israel and that the Third Temple is soon to be built and Mashiach ben David is soon to come...' The group’s enthusiasm is based upon Ezekiel 37:1-12 describing the conditions of the millennial reign of Christ.

Subject: about 'mother' From: Robert Tewart To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 01:55:35 (EDT) Email Address: rtewart@aol.com Message: It is my sincere hope that this does not offend anyone or that it seems that I am insensitive. But we live in a society (and world) in which sin has run rampant and where nothing is really suprising. My point is that it is not inconcievable that someone less than honorable could create a website like 'mother of four fighting cancer' in order to scam others--sadly, even in the name of Jesus. I would be the first to send in my dollar if I KNEW that it was legit but I can't be sure. Hoping I am wrong, Robert

Subject: Re: about 'mother' From: Marc LeBlanc To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Wed, May 19, 1999 at 14:18:09 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: It is my sincere hope that this does not offend anyone or that it seems that I am insensitive. But we live in a society (and world) in which sin has run rampant and where nothing is really suprising. My point is that it is not inconcievable that someone less than honorable could create a website like 'mother of four fighting cancer' in order to scam others--sadly, even in the name of Jesus. I would be the first to send in my dollar if I KNEW that it was legit but I can't be sure. Hoping I am wrong, Robert --- Hi Robert, I don't know that the site is legitimate or not. Prayers are sent for this mother and her children. It would be very nice if we sent a card to her mail box too. As for sending money, I will not miss a dollar. I am not worried about that, although scamming people is not a nice thing at all. It's quite the crime. I've been scammed before: 1500.00 dollars while going to college. It was an off-shore bank with investment possibilities returning as much as 18%. I fell for it, sent in my student loan and never heard from the bank again. Fortunately, the scam was cought and the monies were seized. I got about 500$ back a few years later and the person responsible for the crime is serving a jail sentence in North Carolina I believe. (North or South) I can't remember. Love and prayers in Jesus Christ, brother Marc <'}}}><

Subject: Study guides From: Robert Tewart To: Given / Everyone Date Posted: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 00:26:06 (EDT) Email Address: rtewart@xroads.com Message: Any time I walk into a Christian bookstore, it seems that there are any number of study guide publishers. Which one(s) are the best and most in line with the bible? --Any particular publishers--Zondervan? Tyndale?

Subject: Re: Study guides From: Samuel To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 18:53:32 (EDT) Email Address: samhuffman27@hotmail.com Message: Hello, Robert. Samuel here. Sad to say, Robert, it seems that the vast majority of published guides are published with the intent of bringing in income to the writer or publisher. Think about that a moment. When a certain guide sells well it is pushed more. If a certain guide doesn't sell well it falls by the wayside. The guides that keep the religious buying market happy seem to do best. Teaching guides that might bring persecution for righteousness or might get you called 'beelzebub' by the establishment are shunned from the marketplace. So here's what I've done for the last few years. Using the new covenant scriptures (written since messiah Jesus' resurrection from the land of the dead) when I ocme to the word 'Christ' I read it aloud as 'Messiah' so I can think like the Jewish apostles who wrote and taught. When I come to the name 'Je-sus', I read it out loud as 'Jehovah- saves' so I can think like the Jewish apostles who wrote it. And when I come to a quote from the law and the prophets, I mark that quote and find it in the old covenant. I study it there to see what the Jewish apostles were talking about when they say that this scripture is 'fulfilled'. When I hear that Jesus is called the 'messiah', I want to know what that means to the writer and to his God. When I hear Jesus called 'Lion of the tribe of Judah', I want to know what that means to the writer and to his God and mine. When I hear him called 'son of David', I want to know what that means to the writer and to his God and mine. When I read where Father said in Matthew chapter 1 'you shall call his name 'Je-sus' for he shall 'save' his people from their sins' , I want to know what that meant to the Jewish man Joseph, of the household of David, whose God I serve. And last but not least, Robert,pray like this. My Father, LORD God of the Hebrews, I want to know you. I want to know you. I want to know how I can 'hallow' your divine name which You've bestowed upon your son. I want your kingdom to come and continue coming in my own life and walk. I want to know, grasp, and understand your kingdom and how it influences my life and the lives of those around me. Teach me your kingdom so I can teach others. Teach me to be a usable vessel for your glory and your recognition regardless of the cost.' Robert, try to unlearn the thinking patterns of modern 'Christianity' and try to go back and think like a God-fearing man of Judea thought when he realized that his promised Messiah had come. This 'guide' is not fast nor is it easy, Robert, but the more you hunger for wisdom and insight, the more Father will give it. (And the bookstores will make less bucks off you. They'll just move on to somebody else to increase their profit margins, and you'll have extra to share with the poor.) If you want some more hard-learned pointers, here is my e-mail. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: Mother of four fighting cancer From: Connie To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 10:05:55 (EDT) Email Address: btrfly@lecnet.net Message: I am a mother of four children, 3 boys and a girl, I am fighting cervical cancer, and need your prayers. My full story is at http://www.angelfire.com/tx2/cancer1/index.html I have no way of getting to a doctor and just need prayers and support. God bless

Subject: Tithe From: Robert To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 12:01:26 (EDT) Email Address: . Message: I was discussing the topic of tithing with someone at work and he argued that it was jewish tradition and didn't necesarily apply to christians. He said that the new testament only requires 'sacrificial giving' I didn't really have an answer for that. Any responses?

Subject: Re: Tithe From: Given O. Blakely To: Robert Date Posted: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 17:42:55 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: Brother Robert, It is fashionable in some church circles for people to view tithing as an Old Testament standard that has no relevancy for those in Christ. That is not what the Word of God says, nor is there the slightest hint in all of Scripture that this is the case. Rather than the tithe being taught by Jesus and the Apostles, it is assumed that everyone realizes it belongs to the Lord. Holy people of God have always tithed--before the Law, during the Law, and after the Law. Before the Ten Commandments, or any word was given from God concerning tithing, Abraham 'paid tithes to Melchizedek,' a mysterious high priest of God that appeared to him (Gen 14:20). After God had appeared to Jacob--a considerable time before the Law was give, or any directives came from God concerning the tithing, he vowed to 'surely give the tenth' to the lord (Gen 28:22). Tithing, then, was not based upon a commandment, but on a sense of God's ownership of all things. It was a way of acknowledging that truth, and faith caused the godly to sense it. Under the law, the tithe was given to support the Levitical priesthood. Because the Levites did not receive an inheritance in the land, and did not own anything, the tithe was the Divinely appointed means of supporting them (Numbers 18:20-21). Paul alluded to this practice as being the same principle through which the Gospel ministry was to be supported (1 Cor 9:13-14). The Lord Jesus, when rebuking the scribes and Pharisees, did commend them for tithing, saying that should have done that (Matt 23:23). In the book of Hebrews, it is categorically stated that the Lord Jesus is now receiving tithes. 'Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives' (Heb 7:8). Some object that the one whom it is witnessed that he lives is Melchizedek -- but this is not the case at all. The death of Melchizedek is not recorded, but no place is it suggested that he lives on, or is immortal. That is something that is true of Jesus alone. And, if He is receiving tithes, obviously someone is paying them. Your friend was wrong. The term 'sacrificial giving' is not in the Bible. It has been concocted by men, most of whom are not noted for the giving practices. Tithing is, of course, the foundation of giving, not the whole of it. That is why the Scriptures speak of 'tithes and offerings.' Incidentally, God said to Israel that they were guilty of robbing Him because they withheld their tithes and offerings from Him. I do not know what would lead a person to conclude this was not possible today. Given P. Blakely

Subject: Re: Tithe From: Bud To: Robert Date Posted: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 14:36:12 (EDT) Email Address: DeadLogic7@aol.com Message: Robert, A tithe (one-tenth of one's income) is supposed to go for the work of the Lord. We read in Numbers 18:21 that the Israelites gave a tithe to support the Levites, so that they may be free to serve the Lord. Some say, based on I Corinthians 16, that one should give based upon how much income he receives. Whether this is accurate I am not certain. But what caught my attention in your message was the phrase 'ONLY sacrificial giving,' That strikes me as odd. What does your friend mean by 'only'? What Jesus told the rich man to do can be called 'sacrificial giving.' We are not called to give only 10% of our paycheck (whether gross or take home pay), we are called to give ALL. All that we have and all that we are must be given to God. God must be God of our finances, of our time, of our talents, of our lives. We must be about God's will and realize that all we have is due to Him. That's what makes it 'sacrifical.' I would never put the word 'only' here, as if I were saying, 'Is this all I have to do? No sweat!' This is a serious commitment. Actually, I would argue that this is an impossible commitment, which is why we must rely on God's strength, and not our own. God bless brother. Peace, Bud

Subject: Simply Astounding! From: Given O. Blakely To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 18:57:18 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.,com Message: One of our readers has informed us of an Internet Site that is mind-boggling. It is called the Landover Baptist Church site. Announcing that the unsaved are not allowed on their site, and that there has been a legal ban against any unbeliever coming within 15 miles of their building, these people share their agenda with those visiting their site. Employing drinking parties to reach the lost, as well as immoral involvement, they boast of having the most successful preacher in the world. He is able, they affirm, to win a soul in ten seconds with half of a verse from Leviticus. If it all seems too outrageous to be true, check it out for yourself. Be prepared to be stunned. This will confirm to you that 'the days are evil,' and that we are living in the midst of an attack by the powers of darkness. Keep in mind, this site is offered in the name of Jesus Christ. it offers salvation and life forever in heaven. The site is as follows: http://www.landoverbaptist.org Given O. Blakely

Subject: Parody From: Barry To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 17:55:01 (EDT) Email Address: pastorshelper@saintmail.net Message: Given, That site is a parody site put together by two students who were kicked out of Liberty University. I believe they also have something to do with the production of the 'Simpsons' and 'King of the Hill' television shows. From what I have read they are trying to 'get back' at those with fundamentalist roots who they believe treated them poorly. In Christ, Barry

Subject: More info... From: Barry To: Barry Date Posted: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 18:07:35 (EDT) Email Address: pastorshelper@saintmail.net Message: Here is some background info if you're interested: CLICK HERE

Subject: Re: More info... From: Given O. Blakely To: Barry Date Posted: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 21:41:39 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: Thank you, brother Barry. I am relieved to know the site is bogus,but grieved that it does reflect much of what calls itself the church. Brother Given

Subject: Re: Simply Astounding! From: Robert Tewart To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 01:54:41 (EDT) Email Address: . Message: Brother Given, Although blasphemous and clearly of an evil foundation, I think that this website represents a group of serious satirists that spent a lot of time and money on their website. I don't think they are a for real church or cult. For instance, take a look at the 'meet our staff' link. The pics are positively laughable. To be honest, I don't really know what to think. But I will say this, I have seen enough and I won't be back there. IN JESUS, Robert.

Subject: AN EXPLANATION From: Given O. Blakely To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 13:09:53 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: From time to time, we hear from people whose motives are less than honorable. Often, when replying to such people, our readers think we have been too strong. I am taking this occasion to state how this forum is operated, and why I have taken the stand I have. In particular, this relates to some postings by 'TheRock.' This individual has forwarded several emails to me, in which he has divulged his real nature. I am taking the liberty to post some excerpts from his correspondence. While there is some offensive language in it, I have ommitted the majority of the highly offensive and vulgar words, which were unusually abundant. __________________________________________________ Hi DeadLogic ?! - What kind of a silly name is that!! Sunny, you simply do not pay attention to the real issues ;) The software I said, and that is hard for you to get! Do not come to me as the wise and balanced person with DeadLogic7 as a screen name, For how dumb do you hold me! . . . You will pay the price for your sins in hell and I am praying for that! Or do you really believe that your family photos show an happy and free bunch! . . . Why would you compare your following of Jesus Christ to the Sabbath you cripple! . . . So the Sabbath failed to show God but Christ could ? . . . Bullshit, the Sabbath Day is sign of the spiritual descendants of Abraham! . . . You greedy son of a bitch! technical_foul@myremarq.com (TheRock) __________________________________________________ When men blaspheme God, denigrate the Lord Jesus, and reflect upon the integrity of the Word of God, they will NOT be considered believers in Christ. Nor, indeed, will we be naive enough to think they are serious about seeking the Lord, serving His cause, or desiring the truth. We make no apologies for speaking sternly to people bold enough to deride the Word, Jesus, and those who trust in Him. Such people will be answered forthrightly and with strong words. Those in quest of the truth and glory are welcome to express themselves. Most of our participants have a good spirit about them, and are helpful and considerate. But when anyone begins to deride believers, question the integrity of the Word, or bind their opinions upon us, they will not be tolerated. We will, in such a case, do our best to remove the possibility of such people participating in this discussion forum. Given O. Blakely Send this Message to:

Subject: Good Sunday? From: TheRock To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 05:59:13 (EDT) Email Address: technical_foul@myremarq.com Message: Jesus kept a sabbath and there is no record keeping a sunday for a sabbath? In my heart I am keeping the Sunday pure and clean from sin? Is that the same and the intend of a day of rest? *TheRock* - You might need to email me to get replies!!

Subject: Re: Good Sunday? From: Given O. Blakely To: TheRock Date Posted: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 13:27:46 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: In the minds of other keepers of the Sabbath, Jesus also broke the Sabbath day (Matt 12:1-8; Mark 2:24-28). Under the law, and by specific command from God, a man was stoned to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath day (Num 15:32-36). The question is not whether Jesus kept the Sabbath day or not. He also kept all of the Jewish feasts. Jesus taught that 'doing good' on the Sabbath day was proper (Mark 3:4). That is not what the Law prescribed. In their wilderness journeying, the Israelites were not even allowed to gather manner on the Sabbath day--or even cook (Ex 16:23-29). No work of ANY sort was allowed on the Sabbath (Ex 20:8). Those who did any kind of work on the Sabbath were to be killed (Ex 31:14-16). Those who seek to bind the Sabbath day upon us will not be heard by us. We have a word from God on this, and it is not open to opinion. 'Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ' (Col 2:16-17). We will NOT judge the individual who chooses to honor the Sabbath day himself. We respect his devotion, and will not condemn him in any way. But as soon as that individual takes upon himself to place a responsibility upon us to keep the Sabbath day holy--any sabbath day,we will not listen, or allow his judgment to be placed upon us. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: Good Sunday? From: *TheRock* To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 18:43:06 (EDT) Email Address: technical_foul@myremarq.com Message: In the minds of other keepers of the Sabbath, Jesus also broke the Sabbath day (Matt 12:1-8; Mark 2:24-28). Under the law, and by specific command from God, a man was stoned to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath day (Num 15:32-36). The question is not whether Jesus kept the Sabbath day or not. He also kept all of the Jewish feasts. Jesus taught that 'doing good' on the Sabbath day was proper (Mark 3:4). That is not what the Law prescribed. In their wilderness journeying, the Israelites were not even allowed to gather manner on the Sabbath day--or even cook (Ex 16:23-29). No work of ANY sort was allowed on the Sabbath (Ex 20:8). Those who did any kind of work on the Sabbath were to be killed (Ex 31:14-16). Those who seek to bind the Sabbath day upon us will not be heard by us. We have a word from God on this, and it is not open to opinion. 'Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ' (Col 2:16-17). We will NOT judge the individual who chooses to honor the Sabbath day himself. We respect his devotion, and will not condemn him in any way. But as soon as that individual takes upon himself to place a responsibility upon us to keep the Sabbath day holy--any sabbath day,we will not listen, or allow his judgment to be placed upon us. Given O. Blakely --- Hmm, I am so bad he blocks my email but I am good enough to have specific questions answered :) Who does not believe what he stands for? The Lord Of The Sabbath a sinful Sabbath Breaker. People, jzst wake up!! *TheRock*

Subject: What If... From: TheRock To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 05:57:01 (EDT) Email Address: technical_foul@myremarq.com Message: What if I love Jesus but the 10 commandments still call me guilty? *TheRock* -You might want to email me when you miss a reply to a reply to my post, since I normally respond to the authours via email-

Subject: Re: What If... From: Given O. Blakely To: TheRock Date Posted: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 12:34:00 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: The Law does not call you guilty because you love Jesus, but because you have sinned. If you are still living in sin, then you have not told the truth when you say you love Jesus. If you really do love Jesus, the Law cannpot condemn you. Now stop playing with words. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: What If... From: *TheRock* To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 18:45:51 (EDT) Email Address: technical_foul@myremarq.com Message: The Law does not call you guilty because you love Jesus, but because you have sinned. If you are still living in sin, then you have not told the truth when you say you love Jesus. If you really do love Jesus, the Law cannpot condemn you. Now stop playing with words. Given O. Blakely --- That is why JC says not all who call my Lord ... ;) *TheRock* PS. I have enough of this wannabie priest adoring his daughter

Subject: What is the Rock? From: The Rock To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 12:59:49 (EDT) Email Address: technical_foul@myremarq.com Message: Why would we need a rock in 'christian' circles today?? Are not all opinions valid as part of the whole? Or are there those who spit on the bllod of Christ by offering it to anybody thus destryoing the most high value of it? So, can Christ's blood be to valuebale for somebody?? TheRock

Subject: Email replies From: TheRock To: The Rock Date Posted: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 14:17:50 (EDT) Email Address: technical_foul@myremarq.com Message: Since this board software is silly and I have not figured out how to reply by Email, just Email me your results... TheRock

Subject: Re: Email replies From: Bud To: TheRock Date Posted: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 21:35:42 (EDT) Email Address: DeadLogic7@aol.com Message: THIS IS AN E-MAIL I SENT 'THE ROCK' CONCERNING THE MESSAGES HE POSTED: TheRock, I am honoring your request by sending you a response via E-mail. You said the message board is 'silly.' Personally, I really don't care if you like it or not. I'm not offended at all by your personal preferences, and besides, it's not even my message board. However, I must ask, why did you post a message on it at all if it is so 'silly'? I ask this because it is a bit impolite to leave such a message on someone's message board. You can keep your insults to yourself. Given Blakely did not add the message board to his website to encourage sinful talk. 'As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.' We must be sharpening each other and building each other up with our words. About your message, I must admit that what you posted is quite unclear. Everyone who has posted a response so far has made the same suggestion: State what you are trying to say clearly, so that we may have a rational and potentially beneficial discussion. May God give you wisdom and discernment. Following The Way, Bud

Subject: Re: What is the Rock? From: Given O. Blakely To: The Rock Date Posted: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 10:26:07 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: We do not need A rock, but THE Rock -- Christ Jesus. He is so defined in the Word of God (1 Cor 10:4). We need the Rock for a refuge (Psa 94:22). We need it for a shadow in a weary land (Isa 32:2). The Rock is the means of distinguishing who is serious and who is not (1 Pet 2:8). As to offering the blood of Christ to anybody, that is not our prerogative. It is the Lord Who offers His blood--and He does so to whosoever will. It is our role to inform people of that offer. His blood makes peace for those who are God's enemies (Col 1:20). It is the means through which those who are lost are saved (Rom 5:9). It brings people who are far off from God near to Him (Eph 2:13). Can Christ's blood be TOO valuable to somebody? Only if they do not want to be saved. Only if they do not want to have peace with God. Only if they want to remain far off from God and condemned. But for those who want to be reconciled to God, brought near to Him, have peace with Him, and have their sins forgiven, the blood of Christ is 'precious blood' (1 Pet 1:19). Concerning human opinions having value, none of them have value. There is NO room for opinion in the Kingdom of God. Opinions are what divides the body of Christ. They are what cause dissension and variance. Why do we need opinions when God has revealed His truth to us. So away with opinions! Away with them all! They cannot transfer into heaven, so let's leave them now. It is the truth that makes us free (John 8:32), not opinions! It is the truth that sanctifies, not opinion (John 17:17). it is the love of the truth that saved, not the love of opinion (2 Thess 2:10). Having said all of this, I suggest you work a little on speaking clearly -- saying precisely what you mean. It will help the rest of us give you an appropriate answer. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: What is the Rock? From: Bud To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 21:24:31 (EDT) Email Address: DeadLogic7@aol.com Message: Amen Brother Given. As you said, 'Concerning human opinions having value, none of them have value. There is NO room for opinion in the Kingdom of God. Opinions are what divides the body of Christ. They are what cause dissension and variance. Why do we need opinions when God has revealed His truth to us. So away with opinions! Away with them all! They cannot transfer into heaven, so let's leave them now. It is the truth that makes us free (John 8:32), not opinions! It is the truth that sanctifies, not opinion (John 17:17). it is the love of the truth that saved, not the love of opinion (2 Thess 2:10).' I heard a wise man once say, 'I don't care about what you think; I care about what is true.' Peace, Bud

Subject: Re: What is the Rock? From: Robert Tewart To: The Rock Date Posted: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 06:23:20 (EDT) Email Address: . Message: Why would we need a rock in 'christian' circles today?? Are not all opinions valid as part of the whole? Or are there those who spit on the bllod of Christ by offering it to anybody thus destryoing the most high value of it? So, can Christ's blood be to valuebale for somebody?? TheRock --- Rock, I don't think I'm sure what you mean. Please clarify, you can get some really good feedback at this site if you do. Robert

Subject: Re: What is the Rock? From: Bud To: The Rock Date Posted: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 23:41:27 (EDT) Email Address: DeadLogic7@aol.com Message: Why would we need a rock in 'christian' circles today?? Are not all opinions valid as part of the whole? Or are there those who spit on the bllod of Christ by offering it to anybody thus destryoing the most high value of it? So, can Christ's blood be to valuebale for somebody?? TheRock --- Dear Rock, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, so I will address parts of what you posted as independent statements. To start, you said, 'Why would we need a rock in 'christian' circles today??' My question to that is, 'What do you mean by 'rock'?' Next, you wrote, 'Are not all opinions valid as part of the whole?' Of course not. All opinions are not valid - only those opinions which are truthful are valid. Certainly, as United States citizens, we are entitled to our opinion. That does not mean we who are US citizens are always correct. Basically, we are entitled to be right or wrong. As far as 'those who spit on the blood of Christ by offering it to anybody, thus destroying the most high value of it,' I must admit that I have no idea what you are saying. I will say this though: The blood of Christ covers our sin. That gift of salvation is offered to 'whosoever believes.' As Christians, we are to offer the message of this great salvation to all. So yes, Christ's blood can be valuable for somebody. It is for me, and others who have posted messages on this forum. As I mentioned, I really have no idea what you are saying. Please clarify, so that everyone may benefit from further discussion. Thank you. Following The Way, Bud

Subject: What's involved in Salvation? From: Bill T. To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 17:30:40 (EDT) Email Address: TheHHF@aol.com Message: What, exactly, is involved in salvation? I know faith, but what about repentance and baptism? How do those fit in? I have been studying the Bible about this, but I can't make sense of all the verses. Please help. Thanks. In Christ, Bill Thompson

Subject: Re: What's involved in Salvation? From: Samuel To: Bill T. Date Posted: Wed, May 26, 1999 at 17:08:32 (EDT) Email Address: samhuffman27@hotmail.com Message: Hello, Bill. Samuel here. Here is a suggestion that may help. It isn't a theological kind of suggestion. It's more a way to use the term 'salvation' when dealing with struggling guilt-ridden people in real life. Instead of using the word 'saved', try using the word 'rescued'. It makes a lot more sense to people whose lives have been torn apart by heroin or alcohol or abortion or hate or adultery. You are sharing the message of God's 'rescue' with these people in your neighborhood and town, I hope. Bill, you may want to begin by saying the word 'rescue' out loud when you come across the word 'save' in your bible studies. The name Je-sus means 'Jehovah-saves', so it may sound more usable if you think of it as 'Jehovah-rescues'. That's the way He sees it now that He has raised His Messiah from the realm of the dead with a new life and a 'rescue' for those who struggle under the satanic power of sin. Just a suggestion for actual ministry. Samuel. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: Re: What's involved in Salvation? From: Given O. Blakely To: Bill T. Date Posted: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 22:52:52 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: Faith is what apprehends the truth. It is also what constrains a valid response within the believer. Repentance involves turning from the way that condemned us, and turning to the Lord. Scripture calls it turning form darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God (Acts 26:18). The Word also tells us that 'godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted' (2 Cor 7:10). From another viewpoint, repentance is necessary to believe the Gospel. Thus it is written, 'Repent, and believe in the gospel' (Mark 1:15). Again, repentance is 'toward God,' and faith 'toward the Lord Jesus Christ' (Acts 20:21). As you can see, repentance is tied to both faith and salvation. That is why Jesus said, 'Unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish' (Lk 13:3,5). Baptism, though controversial in church circles, is never controversial in Scripture. It is the appointed means of identifying with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Rom 6:3-8). In fact, it is called 'the form of the doctrine' in Romans 6:17. That is, it is an outward portrayal of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Peter says 'baptism does now also save us' (1 Pet 3:21). It does not do so by mere ceremony, but by procuring for us a good conscience, as Peter says in that text. The associations of baptism all have to do with salvation. Here are some of those associations. 1. Repentance (Acts 2:38). 2. The remission of sins (Acts 2:38). 3. The gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). 4. Believing (Mark 16:16; Acts 8:12; 18:8). 5. Salvation (mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21). 6. Being buried with Christ (Rom 6:4; Col 2:12). 7. Being raised with Christ (Rom 6:4; Col 2:12). 8. Being identified with Christ's death (Rom 6:3). 9. Becoming dead to sin (Rom 6:2-3). 10. Becoming alive to God (Rom 6:3-11). 11. The circumcision of Christ, in which the whole body of sin is cut away (Col 2:11-12). 12. Faith in the operation, or working, of God (Col 2:12). 13. Coming into Christ (Gal 3:27). 14. Putting on Christ (Gal 3:27). 15. A commandment (Acts 10:48). 16. The confession of Christ (Acts 8:36-37). 17. Gladly receiving the Word of God (Acts 2:41). 18. Washing away our sins (Acts 22:16). 19. Coming into one body through the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13). Faith is the means of approaching God, obtaining His promises, and securing His approval. Repentance is the means of disassociating ourselves from the past and securing us to the future. Baptism is the appointed means of publically and effectively becoming identified with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. To balk at either repentance or baptism evidences unbelief. There is no question in Scripture concerning the necessity of faith, repentance, or baptism. They were all ordained and given by God, and that without exception. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: What's involved in Salvation? From: Marc L. To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 15:13:30 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Brother Given, You wrote: > Repentance is the means of disassociating ourselves from > the past and securing us to the future. What to do with an addiction? Marc

Subject: CHURCH OF BIBLE UNDERSTANDING From: RNG777@WEBTV.NET To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 05, 1999 at 20:38:41 (EDT) Email Address: RNG777@WEBTV.NET Message: I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF ANYONE HAS IMFORMATION ABOUT THE CHURCH OF BIBLE UNDERSTANDING

Subject: Re: CHURCH OF BIBLE UNDERSTANDING From: Given O. Blakely To: RNG777@WEBTV.NET Date Posted: Wed, May 05, 1999 at 23:16:36 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: There is a site being developed concerning this group. It identifies it as a cult, and promises to off some insight to interested persons. Here is the link. http://www.cobu.org/cobu/ Given O. Blakely

Subject: Being Made free From: Michael Garrett To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 03, 1999 at 11:57:59 (EDT) Email Address: Mgar315318@aol.com Message: Brothers.& Sisters Greeting from me and my family.I have alway's had a problem with people saying that the (Truth Will Set You Free).That is not scripture.Scripture is We may be MADE FREE by the truth.Who the Son make free is free indeed.If I am incorrect please feel free to email me back.If I am correct please pass this on to the saints.God Bless You And May Heaven Smile Upon You

Subject: Re: Being Made free From: Given O. Blakely To: Michael Garrett Date Posted: Tues, May 04, 1999 at 11:03:54 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: Technically, there is no difference between 'make free' and 'set free.' The NIV translates the verse 'set free.' The original word used in this text is 'el-yoo-ther-o-sei,' and is defined as 'set free, make free' in any standard Greek lexicon. There is no need to be offended by the expression 'set free.' The two terms ('make' and 'set') show two different, yet totally true, sides of the same process. 'Make' emphasizes the righteousness of the procedure, and the Source of the activity. 'Set' emphasizes the effect of the act, which results in very real liberty from the dominion of the devil and the tyranny of sin. While technically 'set' is correct, I do prefer 'make' free--but that is just my preference. To me, it seems to emphasize the Lord and His truth more. However, I can also understand why a person once dominated by sin and laboring under the weight of guilt, would say 'set free.' Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: Being Made free From: Bud To: Michael Garrett Date Posted: Mon, May 03, 1999 at 17:05:57 (EDT) Email Address: DeadLogic7@aol.com Message: Michael, I appreciate your attitude when you said, 'If I am incorrect please feel free to email me back. If I am correct please pass this on to the saints.' I haven't examined the Scripture to which you refer (I will though), this is just a quick response to what you have posted. My question to you is, what is the difference between 'the truth will set you free,' and 'You will be made free by the truth'? I'm looking forward to your response. Peace, Bud

Subject: His Name is Yahweh! From: Yliyah To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 01, 1999 at 21:32:07 (EDT) Email Address: yahshua2@camalott.com Message: The Prophet Isayah said in chapter 2 : 2 It will come to pass in the Last Days that Yahweh will establish His House. come see what great things Yahweh has done. http://www.yahweh.com May the Holy Spirit that raised Yahshua Messiah from the dead bless your understanding Yliyah

Subject: Re: His Name is Yahweh! From: Samuel To: Yliyah Date Posted: Mon, May 03, 1999 at 20:17:51 (EDT) Email Address: samhuffman27@hotmail.com Message: The name of the son contains within it the name of the Father who sent him. Yah-shuah means Yah-saves. (I like Yah-'rescues'.) In English we say Je-sus, or Jehovah-saves.. Thanks for bringing the messianic point up. It's the name that the Jewish apostles Peter, Paul, John, and those guys got all excited about. The name of their God being displayed in the selected name of His son, His name bearer. The power in the name of the son is because his name contains the name of the Father who sent him. That same power is the spirit power that has now raised messiah from the realm of the dead in victory over sin and death, a victory to share. The risen messiah and prophet Jesus honors and 'hallows' the name of the Father who sent him. Should we do anything less? Yahweh means the 'Eternal, the Self-Existant, the one who 'is'. No beginning, no end, He simply 'is' the 'I Am'. This is the God of Abraham, the God who freed me from a life of sin and frustration and put His spirit within me, the God whom I serve and obey. His name be hallowed at all costs, His kingdom come and keep on coming, His will be done by and among His people here on earth where it is needed. Think like a God-fearing Jew and a whole lot of things about the divine kingdom start to make sense. Messiah returns soon (in the name of the Father) to conquer and rule on the throne of David. Let's not be caught sleeping or debating bible trivia on that day. 'Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless.' 2Peter 3:14. Maranatha! Lord, come! Thanks for the word of encouragement, friend. I've been sharing and testifying to the meaning of the name Je-sus and it's connection to the divine name of the Father for over 20 years, and among the overwhelming masses of churchdom , most seem to think what I'm telling them is from Mars. Good to hear from you. Shalom. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: Restoration History Series From: Larry Miles To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 01, 1999 at 20:29:11 (EDT) Email Address: lmiles1952@tdin.com Message: We invite you to check out our web site: http://www.geocities.com/athens/troy/2039/reflect.html In the Blessed Hope, Larry Miles Iroquois church of Christ Louisville, KY http://www.geocities.com/athens/troy/2039

Subject: healing From: Alan Gaines To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 01, 1999 at 00:30:41 (EDT) Email Address: againes@netins.net Message: Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, 7 months ago I ask of you to pray for me.A christian for 6 1\2 yrs and found out that I had Hep c from my old life of doing drugs.after being on interferon for 3 months my doctor was discouraged because my progress was little towards getting better.April 12,1999 will be a date I will remember the rest of my life,I went to my liver doc that morning and he said he couldn't detect the virus in any form(PRAISE GOD) I give 100% praise and credit to Jesus my healer.Thank you for praying for me(it made a difference in this life) Brother, Alan Gaines

Subject: Re: healing From: Marc LeBlanc To: Alan Gaines Date Posted: Tues, May 04, 1999 at 12:12:37 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message:

Subject: Re: healing From: Marc LeBLanc To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Tues, May 04, 1999 at 12:14:11 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Jesus is Lord brother Gaines! I rejoice with you in your healing and restoration to good health. Praise the Lord our God for this. Amen. Love and prayers in Jesus Christ, brother Marc

Subject: Re: healing From: Given O. Blakely To: Alan Gaines Date Posted: Sun, May 02, 1999 at 08:02:50 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: We rejoice with you in the mercy of God! He truly is the Lord who heals all of our diseases! Brother Given

Subject: Re: healing From: Robert Tewart To: Alan Gaines Date Posted: Sun, May 02, 1999 at 06:24:46 (EDT) Email Address: rtewart@xroads.com Message: Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, 7 months ago I ask of you to pray for me.A christian for 6 1\2 yrs and found out that I had Hep c from my old life of doing drugs.after being on interferon for 3 months my doctor was discouraged because my progress was little towards getting better.April 12,1999 will be a date I will remember the rest of my life,I went to my liver doc that morning and he said he couldn't detect the virus in any form(PRAISE GOD) I give 100% praise and credit to Jesus my healer.Thank you for praying for me(it made a difference in this life) Brother, Alan Gaines --- Brother Alan, There aren't words to express my thanks to God for your healing --- NOW IF THAT AINT PROOF?!!!!.......

Subject: speaking in tongues From: Darren To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:12:29 (EDT) Email Address: TheHHF@aol.com Message: Is speaking in tongues biblical? I ask because my church has some people in it who are starting to practice tongues, and they think everyone should do it too. I don't want to do anything that the Bible doesn't say is good. That's why I'm asking about tongues. In Christ, Darren

Subject: Re: speaking in tongues From: Given O. Blakely To: Darren Date Posted: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:57:43 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: Brother Darren, There are numerous incidents of speaking in other languages (which are what 'tongues' mean) in Scripture. In every historical instance, they were understood, and never resulted in confusion (Acts 2:4-11; Acts 10:46; Acts 19:6). There s nothing in any of the examples that presented these as a standard experience. In every case, the experience was extraordinary. The only instruction on the subject of tongues, or speaking in other languages, is given to a church that had trouble with them. The Corinthians were challenged on their use of tongues, and categorically told everyone did not speak in them. They were also told unless the hearers knew what was being said, the speaker spoke into the air, and his words meant nothing (1 Cor 14:9). We are also told not to forbid the speaking in tongues, or pass a sort of law prohibiting their employment. However, whatever is spoken must be interpreted and made clear to the hearers. It must also build them up in the faith, or edify them (1 Cor 14:3-6,39). Those who demand that everything speak in tongues have spoken where God has NOT spoken, and God will not hold them guiltless. There is not a single instance in all of Scripture where a person was said to be superior in any sense because they spoke in tongues--or another language. God nowhere requires His people to speak in tongues, and nowhere commends anyone who does. The matter must be left at that. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: speaking in tongues From: Robert Tewart To: Darren Date Posted: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 14:31:54 (EDT) Email Address: rtewart@xroads.com Message: Is speaking in tongues biblical? I ask because my church has some people in it who are starting to practice tongues, and they think everyone should do it too. I don't want to do anything that the Bible doesn't say is good. That's why I'm asking about tongues. In Christ, Darren --- Darren, The bible has some specific guidlines as to how the gift of tongues are to be used. The one thing for sure is that it is not to be an occasion where there are a hundred people babbling about something no one understands but an orderly and edifying situation. Basically, you can find the information you need in Acts 2:1-11 and Corinthians 14. Also, Chuck Swindoll has a great series on the subject called 'He gave gifts'. I ordered the cassette containing the message on the gift of tongues and it is great. AND it only cost me six dollars. You can check out his website at the Insight for Living Homepage. Please check out this resource. It will give you a clear, easy to understand study on the gift of tongues. By the way, I do not possess this gift. Any person or church that tells you that you MUST practice tongues or that it is a requirement for salvation is not of God. Run in the other direction. Hope this helps. Robert

Subject: Re: speaking in tongues From: Robert To: Darren Date Posted: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 14:30:57 (EDT) Email Address: rtewart@xroads.com Message: Is speaking in tongues biblical? I ask because my church has some people in it who are starting to practice tongues, and they think everyone should do it too. I don't want to do anything that the Bible doesn't say is good. That's why I'm asking about tongues. In Christ, Darren --- Darren, The bible has some specific guidlines as to how the gift of tongues are to be used. The one thing for sure is that it is not to be an occasion where there are a hundred people babbling about something no one understands but an orderly and edifying situation. Basically, you can find the information you need in Acts 2:1-11 and Corinthians 14. Also, Chuck Swindoll has a great series on the subject called 'He gave gifts'. I ordered the cassette containing the message on the gift of tongues and it is great. AND it only cost me six dollars. You can check out his website at the Insight for Living Homepage. Please check out this resource. It will give you a clear, easy to understand study on the gift of tongues. By the way, I do not possess this gift. Any person or church that tells you that you MUST practice tongues or that it is a requirement for salvation is not of God. Run in the other direction. Hope this helps.

Subject: Abiding From: Todd To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 13:20:21 (EDT) Email Address: x Message: Growing God's Way From Greg Laurie's book 'Every Day With Jesus' How do we grow spiritually? What is the secret? According to Jesus, it's simple and straightforward: 'Abide in Me.' Following the Lord is a daily lifestyle. The psalmist spoke of this when he wrote, 'I will extol You, my God, O King; and I will bless Your name forever and ever. Every day I will bless You, and I will praise You name forever and ever...The Lord is near to all who call upon Him, to all who call upon Him in truth. He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him; He also will hear their cry and save them.' (Psalm 145:1, 2,18, 19) The psalmist's relationship with the Lord was marked by a regular, continuous commitment. That's hard for us. We live in a culture that prizes speed. We don't like to wait for anything. We're always on the lookout for shortcuts. In the old days, if you wanted to send a letter, you had to write it, put a stamp on it, and wait for the postman to pick it up. Nowadays, you just fax it. Once we had to look for pay phones when we were away from home. Not anymore. Now we have portable cellular phones. I saw a guy in the store the other day with two cellular phones, talking on both of them at once. We move in a fast-paced society where everything is now. We don't want to wait. We ask for it and it's there. Sometimes we try to carry over that attitude to our relationship with God. We wonder, What are the shortcuts? What are the easy angles? What's the inside track? I'm sorry, but there aren't any shortcuts, there are no easy angles. The only way to spiritual growth is to abide. Sink your roots deeply into Jesus Christ and continually walk with Him, and in time you will see fruit. Do you want to grow in your relationship with Jesus? If so, you have to put forth some effort. There has to be a commitment. That is why David prayed in Psalm 51:10, 'Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.' It means 'stick with it.' But how does this work out in day-to-day living? How to we abide in Jesus in a practical sense? One aspect of abiding is to take time for God and His Word every day. Notice, I said take time. I didn't say to wait for time to materialize. If you wait for a convenient moment to read the Bible, you'll rarely find it. Take time. Make time for the Word of God - it's an indispensable discipline for growing in grace. Abiding makes all the difference. In Acts 2 we read of an early church that was thriving and powerful and impacting its world. Acts 2:47 says, 'The Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.' Abiding is not something we do only on Sunday morning or Sunday night. All through the week we must seek opportunities to get together with God's people, to get into the Word, to pray, to grow spiritually. No, abiding is not a quick process. There are no short courses and we can't skip a grade or two. But that's no problem if we're abiding with Him. Because, after all, that's exactly what we were made for!

Subject: Re: Abiding From: Given O. Blakely To: Todd Date Posted: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:01:17 (EDT) Email Address: GivenB@aol.com Message: Well said, Todd! Abiding in Christ not only requires all of our effort, it is an absolute requirement for being saved. Jesus informed us those who did not abide in Him would be personally removed by the Father Himself (John 15:1-8). The good thing about this is that our Lord has supplied all of the resources required to abide in the Son. Our efforts, feeble though they may appear, and undergirded by omnipotence, praise the Lord. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: Abiding From: Marc LeBlanc To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Wed, May 19, 1999 at 15:53:13 (EDT) Email Address: leblancfamily@yahoo.com Message: Hi! Would anyone care to share with the group what it has meant personally to abide in Christ? I looked up 'Abiding in Christ' in my chain referrence Bible, but I would like to hear what you have to say. Love and prayers in Jesus Christ, brother Marc

Subject: Praise report From: Robert Tewart To: Everyone Date Posted: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 12:35:42 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message:

Subject: Re: Praise report From: Todd To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 18:58:13 (EDT) Email Address: x Message: Amen!

Subject: Re: Praise report From: Terri To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 00:50:48 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: I was late to work the other day only to find out that a fire had started due to some pool chemicals getting mixed together. I was late because of a misunderstanding as to where to meet my wife to pick her up from her car pool. The fumes and smoke were noxious and irritating. Some people were taken to the hospital to get checked out but no one was seriously injured. Thankfully, I never even got close to the situation. Here's the real blessing: I got to explain to my daughter (5yrs) and tell her that God had protected Daddy. I reminded her that that was why every night before bed, we thanked God for keeping us safe and healthy. What an blessing to be able to share how God works with my little one. Dear Robert, The Lord surely was protecting you. That just blesses my heart to hear about you sharing to your daughter about God. What a wonderful time to be able to share with her. I share with my son who is 4 yrs old & pray with him every night. One time after he went to Sunday school he learned about Jesus being inside of us & to listen in our to Him In our hearts. Well he came home and was sitting there with his shirt pulle up with his head down & we asked him what he was doing & he said Im listening fto Jesus in my heart.!!! It was to cute for words. P.S. This is Terri with the Kevbear@aol.com. This THo is my other eamil address. WEll Thank you for sharing & God is Blessing you everyday. Terri

Subject: wham bam! From: Robert Tewart To: Everyone Date Posted: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 15:59:18 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: Anyone please comment. Robert.

Subject: Re: wham bam! From: Given O. Blakely To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 16:28:02 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: You have captured the general sense of things, but need to state it more precisely. The flesh cannot be changed, nor can it enter the Kingdom of heaven. What we do is subdue the flesh, or refuse to allow it to dominate our lives. it is what the Scriptures call "putting off the old man" and "putting on the new man" (Eph 4:22-24; Col 3:9-11). You are absolutely correct in saying this is a lifetime process. As long as we are "in the body," we must wage this war. What we are doing, in a way, is unplugging from what is cursed and plugging into what is blessed. Our behavior can be changed radically and quickly, and does not necessarily have to take a long time. Paul quit persecuting the church the instant he embraced Jesus. There are other parts of our character that are not so easily subdued. How well I know this to be the case. The idea of a saved soul but a lost life is not at all accurate. The part of us that is "old," and is called "the flesh" or the "sinful nature," is not recognized by God at all--nor will it ever be. It has been renounced, and can only die. Until it does, we are to crucify or mortify it. When we come into Christ, we start out with the old man crucified, or placed on the cross. Our job is to keep him there (Rom 6:6; 8:13; Gal 5:24; Col 3:5), not change it. Only what we receive in the new birth ("the new man"), or the part of us that is in Christ, is received by God. The presence of the unacceptable nature is what produces danger. Satan uses that old part to draw us into sin, and provoke us to neglect the "new man." I do not know that it is proper to say the prodigal was destined to return, although I understand what you are trying to say. It is best not to allow our explanations to go beyond what Jesus actually said. In Jesus, Brother Given

Subject: Re: wham bam! From: Bud To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 14:23:50 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: This is how I understand conversion at it's most basic level. At some point in a persons life, God has drawn him in by using some source, a friend witnessing, t.v., a church service, an evangelist etc. That is, the Lord has said, 'OK, the time is now.' and a person says a prayer of faith or has a born again experience and they are saved at that moment. BUT, the conversion of the flesh can take a lifetime. In other words, a spiritual change has taken place, but changes in our behavior and way of thinking take time. At least the more in depth things. This would come from faith, bible study and fellowship. In a word, growing. This would suggests that a person can have a saved soul but a LOST LIFE as in the case of the prodigal (whom I have often compared myself to). The prodigal was 'destined' to return but in the meantime, he was in sorry shape. Anyone please comment. Robert. Robert, Salvation is instantaneous. Sanctification is a life-long process. Bud

Subject: Re: wham bam! From: Angie Luna To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 00:06:00 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: This is how I understand conversion at it's most basic level. At some point in a persons life, God has drawn him in by using some source, a friend witnessing, t.v., a church service, an evangelist etc. That is, the Lord has said, 'OK, the time is now.' and a person says a prayer of faith or has a born again experience and they are saved at that moment. BUT, the conversion of the flesh can take a lifetime. In other words, a spiritual change has taken place, but changes in our behavior and way of thinking take time. At least the more in depth things. This would come from faith, bible study and fellowship. In a word, growing. This would suggests that a person can have a saved soul but a LOST LIFE as in the case of the prodigal (whom I have often compared myself to). The prodigal was 'destined' to return but in the meantime, he was in sorry shape. Anyone please comment. Robert. Well put. My understanding is along the same line , I hope I can make myself clear. The Word says in II Co.5:17 that when we become born again we have passed from death to life (in spirit); but our flesh has to start producing the fruit of the Spirit... right? So experience wise, we are not what we ought to be. We are "dirty little piglets" (I hope that is not too harsh), but the word of God says that we must be cleansed by the washing of water by the word, that we may be a sanctified people unto the Lord. (Ephesians 5:26). As you say this is a life long process of yielding ourselve to the Lord that He may do his will in and trough us; so that we may become vessels of honor in his great house or kingdom. That's all I will say for now. Let me know what you think about this. Thanks for the opportunity to correspond in this important subject.

Subject: Re: Re: wham bam! From: Robert Tewart To: Angie Luna Date Posted: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 06:27:46 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: This is how I understand conversion at it's most basic level. At some point in a persons life, God has drawn him in by using some source, a friend witnessing, t.v., a church service, an evangelist etc. That is, the Lord has said, 'OK, the time is now.' and a person says a prayer of faith or has a born again experience and they are saved at that moment. BUT, the conversion of the flesh can take a lifetime. In other words, a spiritual change has taken place, but changes in our behavior and way of thinking take time. At least the more in depth things. This would come from faith, bible study and fellowship. In a word, growing. This would suggests that a person can have a saved soul but a LOST LIFE as in the case of the prodigal (whom I have often compared myself to). The prodigal was 'destined' to return but in the meantime, he was in sorry shape. Anyone please comment. Robert. Well put. My understanding is along the same line , I hope I can make myself clear. The Word says in II Co.5:17 that when we become born again we have passed from death to life (in spirit); but our flesh has to start producing the fruit of the Spirit... right? So experience wise, we are not what we ought to be. We are 'dirty little piglets' (I hope that is not too harsh), but the word of God says that we must be cleansed by the washing of water by the word, that we may be a sanctified people unto the Lord. (Ephesians 5:26). As you say this is a life long process of yielding ourselve to the Lord that He may do his will in and trough us; so that we may become vessels of honor in his great house or kingdom. That's all I will say for now. Let me know what you think about this. Thanks for the opportunity to correspond in this important subject. Angie, thanks for the comments and by the way, cool name! No, "dirty little piglets" is not at all too harsh. In fact, I think that all of us would agree that we were far worse off than that. The "mystery" for lack of a better term, (at least for me) is when we come back from having drifted away from God's will or "backsliding". I am always thankful that he brought me back into the fold. Stupid little sheep may be more appropriate don't you think?? I don't like to think of what might have happened if I died when I was outside of His will. I think that I would have been saved still but I'm sure that there would be at least a profound understanding of how wrong I was. Hope this is somewhat coherant--I'm writing this in the middle of the night!!

Subject: Re: Re: Re: wham bam! From: Bud To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 19:16:47 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: "stupid little sheep" may be more appropriate, but "dirty little piglets" is much more fun to say. :-) Thank God that we don't have to remain "stupid" and "dirty". Peace, Bud

Subject: / From: / To: Everyone Date Posted: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 15:43:31 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message:

Subject: Re: / From: Bud To: / Date Posted: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 14:26:12 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: / Dear / Good to hear from you. :-) Peace, Bud

Subject: Why in Jesus' name? From: Robert Tewart To: GivenB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 13:04:31 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: In Christ, Robert

Subject: Re: Why in Jesus' name? From: Given O. Blakely To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 16:44:51 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: This is according to Jesus' own instruction. "And I will do whatever you ask IN MY NAME that the Son may bring glory to the Father." (John 14:13). " . . . whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father IN MY NAME, he may give it you" (John 15:16). "In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask IN MY NAME. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete" (John 16:23-24). The design of salvation is to reconcile us to God (Eph 2:16; Col 1:20-22; Rom 5:10; 2 Cor 5:18-21). Jesus said he was the way to the Father (John 14:6). When we pray, Jesus taught us to say "Our Father who art in heaven" (Matt 6:9). Because of being in Christ, we are His sons, and are to approach Him as such (1 John 3:1-3). The Lord Jesus is the appointed and exclusive means through which we come to God. The Holy Spirit is given to us to assist us in our entire spiritual life. Prayer is one of the areas in which He helps us. The Word refers to praying "IN the Holy spirit," NOT to the Holy Spirit (Jude 20). The overall teaching of the Apostles is this. Man has fallen short of the glory of God. God sent Jesus into the world to resolve the dilemma by putting sin away. The Lord Jesus is now bringing us to God (1 Pet 3:18). The Holy Spirit dwells within us to make us able to walk with the Lord, and for the Lord to dwell within us (Eph 3:16-17). Nothing but praying to the Father through the Son fits into this revealed purpose. It is really just that simple. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: Re: Why in Jesus' name? From: Barry To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 11:07:24 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: Brother Given, Do you think that praying in Jesus' Name means to add "In Jesus' Name" to the end of our prayers, or does it have more to do with praying by Jesus' authority? This is how I view it. It is like the baptismal act done "in the Name". It is by the authority and the ability of Christ that we both come into covenant and approach the throne of the Father. I have gotten to the point where I don't believe simply saying the words "in Jesus Name" at the end of our prayers fulfills the requirement of our Lord. All who pray under Jesus' authority pray "in His Name" whether they put that phrase at the end of their prayers or not. Would you agree with this? In Christ, Barry

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Why in Jesus' name? From: Given O. Blakely To: Barry Date Posted: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 14:58:36 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: Brother Barry, Brother Barry, Any inclination to ritualism and lifeless procedures must be crucified, together with other aspects of the flesh. Too, our speech, whether addressed to God or man, is to reflect our heart, and be in strict comportment with the truth. I know of no word from God that allows for a lack of coordination between the heart and the mouth. Concerning saying "in Jesus' name" at the conclusion of our prayers, it is certainly not a bad practice. I view it as a confession with my mouth that Jesus is my Lord and God's Christ. Thus I am confessing with my mouth that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God. To so conclude our prayers is not a law of the Kingdom. If that were the case, it would nullify its power. I am not sure that "in the name of Jesus" means by His authority. I know this is a common perception, but I do not believe the Word of God supports such a view. I understand Scripture to equate "the name of" with "the person and character of." You may recall that when God declared His "name" to Moses, He proclaimed His Person and character (Ex 33:19; 34:5-7). This is also reflected in other proclamations of His name: i.e., "whose name is Jealous" (Ex 34:14), "whose name is the Lord" (Jer 16:21), "whose name is the God of hosts" (Amos 5:7), "whose name is the Branch" (Zech 6:12), "His name is called the Word of God" (Rev 19:13), etc. With this in mind, praying in the name of Jesus is actually praying in harmony with His Person and character. It is prayer that proceeds from our identity with Him, to Whom we have been "joined" (1 Cor 6:17). This, of course, is not determined by what we say at the end of our prayer. It is, however, in order for what we say at the conclusion of our prayer to acknowledge the situation--even though it is not compulsory. Believers are told if they will believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, and confess with their mouth that He is Lord, they will be saved. It is evident this does not refer to some initial series of "steps," but to an ongoing involvement. In my own judgment (and this is a personal persuasion), prayer is an excellent place for this to take place. This passage also teaches the coordination of the heart and the mouth. I seems to me that when our hearts grasp the truth of what has occurred in us being "joined to the Lord," it will erupt from our mouths. Our baptism "in the name of the . . . " does not, of course, refer to a formula, or what was said when we were baptized. In this case also, "in the name" does not, in my opinion, refer to the authority of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The NIV points out that the word "into" is more appropriate than "in." This same use of the word is employed in Acts 8;16, 19:5, Romans 6:3, and Galatians 3:27. We are actually baptized "into" the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--which is what I understand Christ's words to mean. This is confirmed throughout the Apostolic writings. We are said to be "in the Father" (1 John 2:24), and the Father in us (John 14:23; 2 Cor 6:16). We are said to be "in Christ" (Rom 8:1), and Christ in us (Rom 8:10; Col 1:27). The Holy Spirit is said to dwell in us (Rom 8:10; 1 Cor 3:16), and we in the Spirit (Rom 8:9; Gal 5:25). I am persuaded that prayer "in the name of Jesus" refers to this involvement. The commitments Jesus made to such prayer makes this obvious. "And whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it" (John 14:13-14). "Truly, truly, I say to you, if you shall ask the Father for anything, He will give it to you in My name" (John 16:23). There is no chance that such prayer will not be answered--none at all. As you know, it appears that precious little prayer is uttered out of deep involvement with Jesus. Knowing that God has "called us into the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Cor 1:9), this remains an area of great opportunity. All of this, of course, it not set in motion by tacking on "in Jesus name" at the conclusion of our prayers. It is in order, however, for our tongue to confess what our heart perceives. We can glorify God, honor Jesus, and instruct the novice, by such an utterance. In Jesus, Brother Given

Subject: Re: Why in Jesus' name? From: Samuel to Robert To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 19:34:39 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: Hello, Robert. Samuel Huffman here. Although your inquiry wasn't addressed directly to me, I'd like to make a comment. When I was a kid I read one day Matt. 1:21 and asked my Mom why the baby had to be named "Jesus". She said that that was just what the bible says and that we should believe it. Actually, Robert, we being gentiles and not Jewish, we really didn't know why the baby had to be given a specific name. We just went with the cultural flow. Years later, after conversion had occurred in my life, I stumbled across a footnote in an old study bible explaining the Jewish mind on why the baby was given a specific name. The footnote was next to verse 21 in that particular bible. The name "Jesus", Robert, comes from an ancient variation on "Joshua" which means "Jehovah-saves". "Jesus" and "Joshua" are the same name. Nowadays messianic Jews pronounce "Jesus" and "Joshua" as "Yeshua". The Je- of Jesus is the name of the Father who sent him down here on assignment. The -sus comes from and old greek word 'sozo' which means "to save, rescue, deliver, make whole". Hence, the name of the son of the God of the Hebrews who sent him down here contains the actual name of his Father. There's power in the name of the son because in it's literal meaning that name contains the divine name of the One who sent him. Robert, re-read Matt 1:21, and instead of saying " you shall call his name Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins" try thinking like Joseph the Hebrew was hearing it in his native language. "You shall call his name'Jehovah-saves' for he shall save His people from their sins." Do you get the connection? In our English language bibles we aren't given an understanding of what the ancient everyday Jew understood. When you read your bible, try translating the name "Jesus" literally as "Jehovah-saves" out loud. Learn to think like a God-fearing messianic Jew, not like a culturized western 'Christianity' person. Paul, Peter. Mary, Joseph, John, James etc. are all Jewish. When they hear the name of the son of their God, they understand that it contains the actual name of their god. I hope this one piece of information will open a treasure of understanding about this risen Jewish messiah who is soon returning to conquer and reign on David's throne. Yours in the King, the Lion of the tribe of Judah.. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: Sabbath changes From: Robert Tewart To: Everyone Date Posted: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:35:03 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: Thanks, Robert

Subject: Re: Sabbath changes From: Given O. Blakely To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 21:45:16 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: The Ten Commandments are a reflection of the image of God. They are good, and holy, and just, as Romans 7 declares (verses 12-14). But they are NOT the basis for determining whether a person is righteous or not. That is determined by personal faith in Jesus Christ (Rom 4:13; Phil 3:9). And remember, being righteous or holy before the Lord is everything. If we are not righteous, there is no hope of being forever with the Lord. The Gospel announces that God's own righteousness is available to man through faith and in Christ Jesus (Rom 1:16-17; 3:21-22). As for the Sabbath day, Israel, who received the commandment, never really entered into God's rest, or sabbath–even though they kept the Sabbath day. That is precisely the point of Hebrews 4:1-11. God did not merely intend for men to set aside a day to rest from their labors. His intention was for them to "enter" into His rest. By that the Spirit means God's desire is for men to enter into His joy and satisfaction in what He has achieved. His accomplishments reach their apex in the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. That is where God Himself finds the greatest satisfaction (Isa 53:11-12). It is, in the truest sense of the word, where He "rests." There is a greater rest that was typified by the Law's Sabbath day, but never fulfilled by it. That is the rest of faith, and is discussed at length in the fourth chapter of Hebrews. A parallel is made between the fourth commandment Sabbath and the rest of faith. The Sabbath day was bound upon Israel because their hearts were hard. They would have forgotten God altogether if He did not demand they remember Him on that day, dedicating it exclusively to Him. In Christ, however, our nature is changed, so that we actually know and delight in knowing the Lord. Now every day becomes a Sabbath so far as sanctifying the Lord in our memory. This does not mean keeping the Sabbath is wrong. We are not better for keeping it, either. You have not sinned in attending church Saturday evening. That, of course, is not to be equated with keeping the Sabbath day holy. It is never right to demand that everyone keep the Sabbath day–even though no individual is condemned for choosing to do so. Colossians 2:16 forbids us to judge one another on this matter. The recollection of God as the Creator of the universe is wonderful--but it is certainly not the highest or most glorifying view of our God. Intimate fellowship with Him by faith is more wonderful. That is why Scripture affirms, "We which believe do enter into rest" (Heb 4:3). The word used in that text is "sabbaton," or sabbath. It is a higher and more extensive rest which overshadows, but does not obliterate, the former Sabbath. The Sabbath day commandment has not been obviated by a different commandment, but by a greater rest. It is something like the light of the sin removing the light of the moon. That rest is nothing less than satisfaction with the atoning death of Christ. When we enter into that rest, we cease depending on our own accomplishments, resting, as it were, from them. When comparing the New and Old covenants, our approach must be correct. The New Covenant is a different kind of covenant, not at all like the Old Covenant. God said it this way, "I will make a new covenant. . . It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt" (Heb 8:8-9, NIV). The latter part of that chapter confirms this is the covenant Jesus is presently mediating. It is not a covenant of DOING, like the Old Covenant was. In fact, the Spirit makes this parallel in commenting on the nature of the New Covenant. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them. But the righteousness that is by faith says: Do not say in your heart, Who will ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down) or Who will descend into the deep? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved" (Rom 10:5-10). This is a foundational teaching. The Old Covenant put the entire responsibility in the hands of man. Believing or faith are not mentioned a single time in all of the Law–including all of the commandments, all of the directions, and all of the Levitical law. It was a system of doing. In the New Covenant, God does the foundational work, then calls upon us to believe it. He then accepts us upon the basis of our faith, and works with us to fulfill His will (Phil 2:12-13). The entire New Covenant is summarized in a few words. Jeremiah foretold it in Jeremiah 31:31-34. The Spirit later gave it again in Hebrews 8:8-13. It is again summarized in Hebrews 10:16-17. In all of these references what the Lord does is the total emphasis. There are no Ifs, and there are no commands. If you will read those texts, you will find the following affirmations. (1) God will put His laws into the mind. (2) He will write his laws on the heart. (3) He will be God to the people. (4) The people will be His people. (5) Every one in the covenant will know Him, or be familiar and in love with Him. (6) He will not remember their sins any more. All of those things are promises–promises to be believed. They can only be possessed in Christ. Further, our faith will compel us to do anything and everything He commands us. Others scriptures that affirm the nature of the New Covenant, and how radically it differs from the Old Covenant are as follows. Jeremiah 32:39-40; Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:26-27; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21; Ephesians 2:10. The "First day of the week" is frequently mentioned in Scripture, and always with a note of approval. This is specifically said to be the time when Jesus rose from the dead. "Now when He rose early on the first day of the week . . ." (Mark 16:9). This is also the day on which Jesus, following His resurrection, first appeared to His disciples. "Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, 'Peace be with you'" (John 20:19). It is also the day on which He appeared the second time to His disciples. John refers to it as eight days following the first appearance, which would put it on the first day of the week. "And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, 'Peace to you!'" (John 20:26). In addition, the day of Pentecost occurred on the first day of the week. This feast took place 50 days after the high Sabbath of the paschal week (Lev 23:15-16). The Sabbath from which the count was made occurred the day after Jesus was crucified, and was the reason why His body was taken down from the cross (John 19:31; Mark 15:42). It was also the Sabbath honored by the women who came to anoint Jesus' body (Mark 16:1; Luke 23:54-56). Fifty days from that Sabbath day was the first day of the week--the Day of Pentecost, on which the Spirit was poured forth. We are categorically told that the early disciples came together to break bread "on the first day of the week" (Acts 20:7). When instructing the Corinthians on setting aside special monies for the poor saints in Jerusalem, Paul specified that it be done on "the first day of the week" (1 Cor 16:2). As the church progressed, from Ignatius (A.D. 30-107) onwards, we "have a complete chain of evidence that The Lord's Day became the regular Christian name for the first day of the week." Suffice it to say, there is solid ground for perceiving as "the Lord's Day" the first day of the week. This was the day on which natural light was created (Gen 1:3-5). It was the day on which Christ Jesus arose from the dead (Mark 16:9). His two recorded appearances to His disciples occurred on this day (John 20:19,26). The day of Pentecost took place on this day (Lev 23:15-16), and the early church is said to have gathered together on the "first day of the week" (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor 16:2). This is not simply another day! The events that took place on the first day of the week are conducive to godly recollections that sanctify the soul. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: Sabbath changes From: Roger L. Wever To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 21:49:08 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: From time to time, questions arise that are related to the whole old covenant/ new covenant change. And they ususally always stump me. I was asked why we don't observe the sabbath as in the old testamanent- in a very strict way. Why is it now that it doesn't seem important where work is concerned and when we worship. If I go to a service on Saturday nights (and I do) because I work on Sunday, is that wrong? Does it not 'count' because it was not on the sabbath? How did the sabbath change from Saturday to Sunday? What if I'm required to work both Saturday and Sunday. Can I observe the Sabbath on another day? Thanks, Robert to assist you with a variety of topics related to analysis of OLD/NEW COVENANT: acquire the following book entitled WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT COVENANT authored by Mont W. Smith and published by College Press Publishing Co., Joplin, MO. The copyright is 1981. paperback version printed in 1996

Subject: Restoration Christian Churches From: Roger L. Wever To: Everyone Date Posted: Sun, Apr 11, 1999 at 01:26:37 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb403935 Resource Central

Subject: Re: Restoration Christian Churches From: Robert Tewart To: Roger L. Wever Date Posted: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:57:24 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: Resource CentralRoger, Here is an interesting site that I came across studying for a history class. I suggested it to my instructor as a "really neat site" but he just said that it was out of his "element and frame of interest." :) Anyway, it's historical in context and may not interest you as much as it did me (a history major) but check it out anyway. Sorry I don't have a link. http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/index.html

Subject: Re: Re: Restoration Christian Churches From: Roger L. Wever To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 21:52:36 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: Resource CentralRoger, Here is an interesting site that I came across studying for a history class. I suggested it to my instructor as a 'really neat site' but he just said that it was out of his 'element and frame of interest.' :) Anyway, it's historical in context and may not interest you as much as it did me (a history major) but check it out anyway. Sorry I don't have a link. http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/index.html thanks Robert. it is very interesting. Remember, I use to be a History Teacher.

Subject: What do you think of this? From: Barry To: Everyone Date Posted: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 20:24:41 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: Hi, This is taken from Stephen Olford's "Preacher Magazine". I'd be interested in any of your thoughts? In Christ, Barry

Subject: Re: What do you think of this? From: Given O. Blakely To: Barry Date Posted: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 11:10:17 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: I am in thorough agreement. God spoke of these times through Amos, as I am sure you are aware. They are described as a judgment from Him, and not a mere circumstance of men. "The days are coming," declares the Sovereign LORD, "when I will send a famine through the land-- not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD. Men will stagger from sea to sea and wander from north to east, searching for the word of the LORD, but they will not find it. In that day the lovely young women and strong young men will faint because of thirst" (Amos 8:11-13). Man have dawdled too long with the things of Gods. Human agendas have usurped the purpose of the Almighty, and religious institutionalism has become a monstrosity among men. All of this has provided an environment where powerless religion and an absence of Biblical preaching can flourish. thus, God has sent the famine. He, of course, can call an end to the famine also. I have found the great ignorance of God's Word among the very people claiming to have restored it most fully. I also know there is a remnant of God's people, scattered throughout this Babylonish hodgepodge. May the Lord use us to rally and feed this remnant.

Subject: Re: Re: What do you think of this? From: Barry To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 11:08:10 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: :)

Subject: Robert Tewart From: Roger L. Wever To: Everyone Date Posted: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:03:49 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: http://www.hows.net/89448TCC2 No, this is not someone soliciting gossip about Robert. I just haven't heard from him in a while and was concerned. I posted this in this manner to primarily get his attention to solicit a reply from him. Have a blessed/productive time serving the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind!

Subject: Re: Robert Tewart From: Robert Tewart To: Roger L. Wever Date Posted: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 13:46:13 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: No, this is not someone soliciting gossip about Robert. I just haven't heard from him in a while and was concerned. I posted this in this manner to primarily get his attention to solicit a reply from him. Have a blessed/productive time serving the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind! Roger, Thanks for apparently being interested in what I have to say. It's encouraging. Lately I guess people are having less and less to say although in our society that seems pretty odd. Even for Christians! Now that you mention it, there is something I wanted some imput on. My wife and I have always planned to send our kids to a private Christian school for their education. Well the time is nearing. This fall, my five year old will be ready for kindergarten. The school we had picked out (non-denom) is already full as returning students and their siblings have first dibs. Our second possibility is a Lutheran school that came highly reccomended from a co-worker (interestingly, he is Catholic). Anyway the school looks pretty good. I read through all the Lutheran "stuff" I could get my hands on and they seem like a Christ loving church and their philosophy for education seems on target. In fact, from what I read, Lutheran's are really into instituting schools as it is an important part of their ministry across the board. One of the questions on the application read like this: "Is your child baptised?" Well, as you have probably guessed by now, mine are not. I am assuming that this may be a requirement for registration and will cross that bridge when I get there. My question is this, what other Lutheran denominational stuff might I or should I prpare myself for. In my Christian life, it has always been an interest to me exactly what the difference in denominations are. I know that man's traditions have nothing to do with salvation but am interested anyway. Mainly right now because of my current situation. Thanks again, Robert

Subject: Re: Re: Robert Tewart From: Roger L. Wever To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 10:46:14 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: No, this is not someone soliciting gossip about Robert. I just haven't heard from him in a while and was concerned. I posted this in this manner to primarily get his attention to solicit a reply from him. Have a blessed/productive time serving the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind! Roger, Thanks for apparently being interested in what I have to say. It's encouraging. Lately I guess people are having less and less to say although in our society that seems pretty odd. Even for Christians! Now that you mention it, there is something I wanted some imput on. My wife and I have always planned to send our kids to a private Christian school for their education. Well the time is nearing. This fall, my five year old will be ready for kindergarten. The school we had picked out (non-denom) is already full as returning students and their siblings have first dibs. Our second possibility is a Lutheran school that came highly reccomended from a co-worker (interestingly, he is Catholic). Anyway the school looks pretty good. I read through all the Lutheran 'stuff' I could get my hands on and they seem like a Christ loving church and their philosophy for education seems on target. In fact, from what I read, Lutheran's are really into instituting schools as it is an important part of their ministry across the board. One of the questions on the application read like this: 'Is your child baptised?' Well, as you have probably guessed by now, mine are not. I am assuming that this may be a requirement for registration and will cross that bridge when I get there. My question is this, what other Lutheran denominational stuff might I or should I prpare myself for. In my Christian life, it has always been an interest to me exactly what the difference in denominations are. I know that man's traditions have nothing to do with salvation but am interested anyway. Mainly right now because of my current situation. Thanks again, Robert You are very welcome Robert. In general, I am aware that Lutheran schools do produce good character and students who perform quite well in academics and sports. There question to you really is 'Is your child sprinkled?' which is definitely one of their errors. Briefly other concerns of doctrine in error which you may need to be on your guard about with them is basically their whole approach to the design and function of the church which is reformation (slapping on another coat of paint on what they think the church should look like)instead of restoration as addressed in his article (through me) at (http://www.crosslink.org/tnb). Their name is in direct violation of Martin Luther himself as he told their forefathers who listened to him saying, "Do not call yourselves Lutheran for I was not crucified for you...!" There is an excellent biography of Martin Luther by Roland Bainton entitled, HERE I STAND. Lutherans express observation of the Lord's Supper by 'Consubstantiation' which basically is "Jesus presence (body & blood) reside beside the elements (bread & wine)" which is quite a different understanding than Catholics and other Protestants then and today. Sola Fide' or Faith Alone (or Only as expressed today) is the rule and practice within Lutheran theology. Martin Luther himself dispised the book of James in the New Testament. I believe he dispised it because it convicted him to believe otherwise. It is most unfortunate that he failed to listen to such convictions from the Word itself. I believe that if you and your wife instruct your children more adequately in your home as 'Pricilla and Aquilla did with Apollos' in the New Testament that your children will get along well in a Lutheran school. Perhaps your family can impact part of the Lutheran community there to follow God's design more accurately too. I imagine that Martin Luther would be proud of you in that regard if he were yet still around. In his place, I make this claim based upon my studies about his life and ministry.

Subject: Come and visit my Christian Webpage From: The Caring Angel To: Everyone Date Posted: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 20:55:59 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: http://members.tripod.com/~thecaringangel/ Hello Christians, you wonderful Christians. I care about all the Christians in this world and I want to encourage you all about God with thismessage. That God so loved the world that he gave his only son to die for everyone's ins. And os that no one has ot die for thier sins. And back than people sinned and they had a law that they had to die for thier sins. And God saved everyone. What a wonderful faithful God we have. God is your best friend. God is my best friend. There is none like him. Come and visit my Webpage and sign my guestbook to let me know what you think of my Webpage thanks. You can post encoiraging messages about God to others ot read and psot Christian articles too. And you can come post messages talking about a subject with the people who posted on my message board. And answer ones you want to answer. And I hope you will keep comming ot my Webpage ofrever because it will always be updated. And I hope you will bookmark if forever so that you can come back anytime as often as you like thanks. God bless you all richly aalways. God loves you all always. Easter is the day that Jesus is reisen. Amen! Hallelujah! :)

Subject: Re: From: Given O. Blakely To: Bob Date Posted: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 12:09:33 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Paul provided what might be called a mission statement in Philippians 3:7-14. Following his words, he said, "Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you" (verse 15). That simply means this is the only acceptable objective for life. Whatever statement you decide to make, it must reflect the priorities given in "this mind," shared by Paul. Note he stated that is anyone had another kind of mind-set, God would reveal the truly acceptable one to him. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: From: Samuel to Bob To: Bob Date Posted: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 17:18:40 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hello, Bob. Samuel Huffman here. In an effort to keep it simple, consider these 3 concepts as a basis. 1)May Jehovah the Father's name be hallowed in Bob and his walk, 2)May Father's kingdom come more and more into view and function in Bob's walk, and 3)May Father's will be done on earth by and through Bob and his fellow believers. Also, in harmony with the above, I might add, Be ever the listener and the encourager, the servant, and seldom seldom seldom the rebuker or the corrector, even when you may think you see error all around you. Listen quietly, speak less than you sometimes want to. Avoid seeking a lot of counsdel from flesh and blood. Spend more time meditating in the word of the kingdom than talking about it. And finally, spend more prayer and quiet time with the Father than anything else. Only this last one will cause 1-3 to work in you as Father desires. Avoid complexity; hunger for childlike simplicity in messiah Jesus and the Father. Keep it simple. I've had to re-learn these basics many times. Oh yes, one more, Bob. Be at peace to to say "I don't know" when Father tells your heart that you really don't know. And then refrain from further commentary. That's when his yoke becomes easy and his burden light, and you find rest for your soul in your daily walk. You may be mentoring somebody (whether you know it or not), and an honest "I really don't know" will serve you better than trying to come up with a proper sounding answer that doesn't come from the heart. I hope these suggestions prove useful for what you are asking. For His is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen? Yours in Messiah Jesus, Samuel Huffman. samhuffman27@hotmil.com

Subject: Re: From: Robert Tewart To: Bob Date Posted: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 13:32:33 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I am working on a personal 'mission statement' in accordance with my christian faith in order to set specific goals in my life concerning God and my family. Basically, I am imagining it to be a rather personal response to an honest inventory of my life. I want to continue growing in my strengths as well as work on my shortcomings. Some of it will not be changeable like my commitment to living for Christ and my family while other parts will adjust to the inevitable obstacles and circumstances of life. It will also address my weaknesses and contain a plan for correction and growth. Of course all of this will be for the glory of God so that I can be all that he wants me to be. Anyone have any suggestions of what might be included? Bob, sounds like a good idea. What do you plan to do with it. What is your motivation for doing this? What got you thinking about it?

Subject: "mission statement" From: Bob To: Everyone Date Posted: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 13:27:17 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Anyone have any suggestions of what might be included?

Subject: prayer needed From: jan To: Everyone Date Posted: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 19:58:07 (EST) Email Address: NA Message:

Subject: Re: prayer needed From: Given O. Blakely To: jan Date Posted: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 20:40:58 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: We praise God with you for your healing. God remains able to do exceeding abundantly above all we ask or think, according to the power that works in us (Eph 3:20). May your prayers all be answered! Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: prayer needed From: Robert Tewart To: jan Date Posted: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 02:23:33 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: i praise god he healed me of hodgkins, and i want to quit smoking so bad..... need prayer in recovery of radiation and thank u alll Dear Jan, My prayer for you began before I finished reading your post. God bless you and fight the good fight against that smoking!

Subject: Re: prayer needed From: Roger L. Wever To: jan Date Posted: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 21:15:42 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: i praise god he healed me of hodgkins, and i want to quit smoking so bad..... need prayer in recovery of radiation and thank u alll I have already lifted a prayer for you today. I am also praising the Lord with you too.

Subject: Re: prayer needed From: Robert Tewart To: jan Date Posted: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:47:26 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: i praise god he healed me of hodgkins, and i want to quit smoking so bad..... need prayer in recovery of radiation and thank u alll Jan, How's the smoking going? Or NOT smoking I guess I should ask. Know that your prayer requests are taken seriously and your post are welcome to us readers. Robert

Subject: A Good Book??? From: John Holmes To: Everyone Date Posted: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 17:49:22 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: John

Subject: Re: A Good Book??? From: Vic Eagle To: John Holmes Date Posted: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 17:59:59 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: The truth is there, even with the errors in the manuscripts and translations. In some cases, you just have to work a little harder to find it. In Jesus, Vic

Subject: Re: A Good Book??? From: Given O. Blakely To: John Holmes Date Posted: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 20:39:25 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: To begin with, John, you are not qualified to make such foolish observations. You have made assertions that cannot be justified. The Bible has survived nearly 2,000 years of attack--concerted attacks. Still, the power of God remains in it, as souls are both converted and strengthened by its words. Anyone whose sins are forgiven, resists the devil, and has a living hope, is a living contradiction of your postulate. God has affirmed His Word will never pass away--and it will not. Even all of nature will pass away, yet his Word will not. A person foolish enough to believe the one who has been created can distort, mutilate, and garble the Word of the Creator has been seriously deceived. After the critics of the Bible have passed away, and their words are all forgotten, the Word of God will remain. Wait and see. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: Re: A Good Book??? From: Lucy To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 15:44:40 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: To begin with, John, you are not qualified to make such foolish observations. You have made assertions that cannot be justified. The Bible has survived nearly 2,000 years of attack--concerted attacks. Still, the power of God remains in it, as souls are both converted and strengthened by its words. Anyone whose sins are forgiven, resists the devil, and has a living hope, is a living contradiction of your postulate. God has affirmed His Word will never pass away--and it will not. Even all of nature will pass away, yet his Word will not. A person foolish enough to believe the one who has been created can distort, mutilate, and garble the Word of the Creator has been seriously deceived. After the critics of the Bible have passed away, and their words are all forgotten, the Word of God will remain. Wait and see. Given O. Blakely With all due respect Mr. Blakely, I believe that everyone is "qualified" to read the Bible and discern for themselves who wrote or inspired it. This is one of the main tenants of Protestanism-read the bible yourself and decide for yourself. I believe its called private intepretation. How can you attack John's *position* when you hold to this doctrine, as do all Protestants? Besides, how do you know that John is "not qualified to make such foolish observations"? Do you know John personally? For all you and I know John could be a history major studying at Oxford! It angers and saddens me when an non-Xtain has a serious question and/or comments about the faith and when he speaks out he gets your kind of response. Why didn't you give him some explantions as to why Xtains believe in the Bible? All I saw in this post was that, in your opinion, he was wrong and that you were right! Why didn't you give us any sources to back up your beliefs???? May His Grace Give You King Solomon's Wisdom, Lucy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: A Good Book??? From: Bob To: Lucy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 12:59:50 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: To begin with, John, you are not qualified to make such foolish observations. You have made assertions that cannot be justified. The Bible has survived nearly 2,000 years of attack--concerted attacks. Still, the power of God remains in it, as souls are both converted and strengthened by its words. Anyone whose sins are forgiven, resists the devil, and has a living hope, is a living contradiction of your postulate. God has affirmed His Word will never pass away--and it will not. Even all of nature will pass away, yet his Word will not. A person foolish enough to believe the one who has been created can distort, mutilate, and garble the Word of the Creator has been seriously deceived. After the critics of the Bible have passed away, and their words are all forgotten, the Word of God will remain. Wait and see. Given O. Blakely With all due respect Mr. Blakely, I believe that everyone is 'qualified' to read the Bible and discern for themselves who wrote or inspired it. This is one of the main tenants of Protestanism-read the bible yourself and decide for yourself. I believe its called private intepretation. How can you attack John's *position* when you hold to this doctrine, as do all Protestants? Besides, how do you know that John is 'not qualified to make such foolish observations'? Do you know John personally? For all you and I know John could be a history major studying at Oxford! It angers and saddens me when an non-Xtain has a serious question and/or comments about the faith and when he speaks out he gets your kind of response. Why didn't you give him some explantions as to why Xtains believe in the Bible? All I saw in this post was that, in your opinion, he was wrong and that you were right! Why didn't you give us any sources to back up your beliefs???? May His Grace Give You King Solomon's Wisdom, Lucy Lucy, I think that brother Given was reffering to John's assertion that the bible is full of "mistakes and contradictions". This is a common argument from a non believer. However, when called on it, they can rarely give an example to back up their claim. John's statement (a weak and common one) makes him unqualified. Also, even if brother Given does not know John personally, he is right to make the observations that he does. Even if John was a "history major studying at Oxford" that would not necesarily make any difference. I assure you that there are plenty of Bible scholars and professors of religious history that are as dead in their sins as any murderer-- or as anyone not born again. Remember what the apostle Paul wrote, "Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies" (1Cor. 8:1b) Bob

Subject: Re: Re: Re: A Good Book??? From: Bud To: Lucy Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 16:55:04 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: Lucy, I agree with you to the extent that the love of Christ is definitely absent from Brother Given's reply to John. Would I have responded that way? Of course not. My reply to John was direct yet without insult. Essentially, I told John to back up his claims, if he can. However, Given's commitment to God and passion for God's Word is evident in his reply, and that I respect. Brother Given can learn from his mistake, just as you or me. Concerning who is "qualified": Given told John that he was "not qualified to make such foolish observations." I disagree with this wholeheartedly. WHO is qualified to make foolish observations? The answer is EVERYONE, because everyone is qualified to be foolish. A great challenge to all mankind is that we must rise above our foolishness. Is John qualified to make the observations he has made? Who knows? Does John understand the law of non-contradiction? Has John done the indepth contextual study of whatever passages he thinks are contradictory? None of us know, which is why I told John that he should "lay his cards on the table." In other words, he must now attempt to back up his claim. Only then will we see if he is qualified to make these claims. Here we must make a distinction. One may be qualified to determine if any logical contradictions arise in the text of Scripture, but no one is qualified (or able) to discern the wisdom of God without the Holy Spirit. One may be qualified to determine the correctness of the grammar, but no one can understand the "deep things" of God without the help of God. So, when it comes to the important things (the eternal things), we are qualified only when we have studied much, prayed much, and relied on the Holy Spirit completely. Following The Way, Bud

Subject: Re: A Good Book??? From: Bud To: John Holmes Date Posted: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 00:00:05 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I used to be a Christian, but I'm not anymore. The reason I'm not is that I can't trust in a book that is so full of mistakes and contradictions. Not only that, but the Bible has been revised and changed throughout the centuries? How can anyone put faith in such a book? John John, All that remains now is for you to lay your cards on the table. You see, the burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claims. You can claim that the Bible is full of baloney, and I can claim that, when I put on my red cape, I can fly; however, what matters is if you can back up your claim. Can you offer any evidence to back up what you say? The day you can will be the day I put on my red cape and fly over to your house for a visit. Peace, Bud

Subject: Re: A Good Book??? From: Robert Tewart To: John Holmes Date Posted: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 02:33:32 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: John, People have been trying to prove and disprove the bible for at least the past 2000 years and both have failed. Your not going to find "proof" in a human sense. However, there are some basic truths that may be of some interest to you. One thing that has always facinated me is that none of the apostles recanted their testimonies about Jesus--and I believe that all of them except John died horrible martyred deaths. They probably could have saved their lives by renouncing their faith but they did not. And this was years and years after the crucifiction. People do not like to die with secrets. I'm sure others will give you scripture passages to read and study but for now this is all I have. At least pray for an understanding from God. He will not withold his spiritual "proof" from you if you are sincerely looking. In Christ, Robert

Subject: Re: Re: A Good Book??? From: Lucy To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 16:08:56 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: John, People have been trying to prove and disprove the bible for at least the past 2000 years and both have failed. Your not going to find 'proof' in a human sense. However, there are some basic truths that may be of some interest to you. One thing that has always facinated me is that none of the apostles recanted their testimonies about Jesus--and I believe that all of them except John died horrible martyred deaths. They probably could have saved their lives by renouncing their faith but they did not. And this was years and years after the crucifiction. People do not like to die with secrets. I'm sure others will give you scripture passages to read and study but for now this is all I have. At least pray for an understanding from God. He will not withold his spiritual 'proof' from you if you are sincerely looking. In Christ, Robert With all due respect Robert I don't see your point. People have been trying to discredit the Koran and right now the fastest-growing religion is Islam. There have been millions of lives given for Allah. Millions of Muslims living today are ready to die in a jihad. That, I believe, is the fallacy of your argument and I don't believe that non-Xtians will accept that (at least I didn't accept it when I was in a period of doubt). This argument can be made for many other religions. I hear that Josh McDowell or Norm Geisler are good Xtian apologists :) so you might want to read them. On the other hand, I do strongly agree that John will not find "proof" because putting your trust into the Bible is faith and you can't proove faith. John and others like him need lots of prayer, the HS is the ONLY one who can change anybody's mind. May His Grace Shine Upon You, Lucy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: A Good Book??? From: Robert Tewart To: Lucy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 03:01:45 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: John, People have been trying to prove and disprove the bible for at least the past 2000 years and both have failed. Your not going to find 'proof' in a human sense. However, there are some basic truths that may be of some interest to you. One thing that has always facinated me is that none of the apostles recanted their testimonies about Jesus--and I believe that all of them except John died horrible martyred deaths. They probably could have saved their lives by renouncing their faith but they did not. And this was years and years after the crucifiction. People do not like to die with secrets. I'm sure others will give you scripture passages to read and study but for now this is all I have. At least pray for an understanding from God. He will not withold his spiritual 'proof' from you if you are sincerely looking. In Christ, Robert With all due respect Robert I don't see your point. People have been trying to discredit the Koran and right now the fastest-growing religion is Islam. There have been millions of lives given for Allah. Millions of Muslims living today are ready to die in a jihad. That, I believe, is the fallacy of your argument and I don't believe that non-Xtians will accept that (at least I didn't accept it when I was in a period of doubt). This argument can be made for many other religions. I hear that Josh McDowell or Norm Geisler are good Xtian apologists :) so you might want to read them. On the other hand, I do strongly agree that John will not find 'proof' because putting your trust into the Bible is faith and you can't proove faith. John and others like him need lots of prayer, the HS is the ONLY one who can change anybody's mind. May His Grace Shine Upon You, Lucy Well, to begin with Lucy, the Koran is based off of the Holy Bible. Based on that fact alone and considering what Muhammad taught in addition to the Bible proves that it is false. Whether a non-believer BELIEVES that or not makes no difference. God's Truth is not based in what you believe, it is simply truth. As brother Given has said, many have made a concerted, serious effort to disprove as well as prove the Holy Bible and have gotten nowhere. What I was saying to John Holmes was that he pretty much was not qualified to make such a judgement on the Bible. The bits of information that I gave John about the martyred deaths of the apostles was just to show him that there are some profound facts in the Bible that are interesting to note. My purpose was to let him know that the whole thing did not have to be a mystery to him. I realize that only faith can save him. Also, "religions", as you refered to, grow very quickly and that is the danger in them. Look at the Mormon church. I don't know about where you live, but Mesa has as many LDS churches as it does gas stations. To finish up I want to make a comment on something you wrote. To be honest, I would rather have emailed this to you but you did not provide your address. It kind of came across as irreverant that you used the phrase "X-tians" and "HS". I know that this sounds like a jab from me but I thought that I would point that out. It also saddens me when I see the use of "Xmas" at Christmas time. It just seems that as Christians we should hold fast to what Jesus said in Matthew: "hallowed be thy name". If I am correct on this, I think that the pharisees believed that they could not even utter the name of God and were blown away at the term "Abba" or papa.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Good Book??? From: Bud To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 00:02:50 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: Robert, You wrote the following to Lucy: "To finish up I want to make a comment on something you wrote. To be honest, I would rather have emailed this to you but you did not provide your address. It kind of came across as irreverant that you used the phrase 'X-tians' and 'HS'. I know that this sounds like a jab from me but I thought that I would point that out. It also saddens me when I see the use of 'Xmas' at Christmas time. It just seems that as Christians we should hold fast to what Jesus said in Matthew: 'hallowed be thy name'. If I am correct on this, I think that the pharisees believed that they could not even utter the name of God and were blown away at the term 'Abba' or papa." Let me make a few random observations... If "X" represents "Christ", then the "proper" abbreviation of "Christian" would be "Xian", not "Xtian", since "X" does not represent "Chris" (May the Lord forgive my perfectionism). More importantly, it is not fair to compare Lucy's usage of "Xtian" (however she spelled it) to the commercialized non-spiritual abbreviation of the word "Christmas" - "Xmas". "Xmas" is, as I just said, the commercialized and non-spiritual abbreviation. Lucy isn't attempting to take Christ out of the picture in what she has written. All she has done has used abbreviations. This is the internet, where shortcuts are taken and abbreviations are used fluently. "brb", "lol", "rofl", and a whole slew of other abbreviations are commonplace online. If you are uncomfortable with abbreviating God's name, then don't do it. If you feel you must capitalize the pronoun "He" when it refers to God, then do so. the Jews, out of reverence to God's name, abbreviate "God" (I've usually seen it like this: G-d). What matters is if the name of Jesus is revered in one's life. All the rest is a matter of personal preference. Remember, we have "freedom in Christ." Of course, I absolutely agree with you that the name of the Lord is holy, and it is terrible how Christmas has turned into society's cash cow. In mathematics, "X" is an "unknown" value, or a variable. We Christians must show the world where the greatest value lies - in Jesus Christ. We must eliminate the unknown and replace it with the truth. From what I've seen, I am confident that you are doing just that. Following The Way, Bud

Subject: Re: Re: Re: A Good Book??? From: Bud To: Lucy Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 23:39:51 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: Lucy, I am troubled by what you said about "faith." You said, "I do strongly agree that John will not find 'proof' because putting your trust into the Bible is faith and you can't prove faith." I'm bothered because, 1. I am not quite sure what you mean, and 2. I am not sure that faith is completely beyond the realm of "proof." What is "faith"? Is it merely a heartfelt guess? Is it a "gut feeling"? If faith is completely beyond logic and reason, then the entire field of apologetics is, to borrow a phrase from CS Lewis, "damned nonsense." I'm interested in what you think. Peace, Bud

Subject: Re: A Good Book??? From: Roger L. Wever To: John Holmes Date Posted: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 21:25:45 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I used to be a Christian, but I'm not anymore. The reason I'm not is that I can't trust in a book that is so full of mistakes and contradictions. Not only that, but the Bible has been revised and changed throughout the centuries? How can anyone put faith in such a book? John It seems your reason and reasoning is quite unstable. You should never put faith in a book (including the Holy Bible) - that is another form of idolatry. The Bible will not save you from your sins nor will it in itself bring you into eternal life. No one enters heaven by any means other than Jesus. P.S. Perceived mistakes and contradictions are usually a result of our lack of information or understanding. I trust that you will reconsider unless of course you have already become such a one as described in Hebrews 6 and 10.

Subject: Re: Re: A Good Book??? From: Lucy To: Roger L. Wever Date Posted: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 16:17:41 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: "It seems your reason and reasoning is quite unstable. You should never put faith in a book (including the Holy Bible) - that is another form of idolatry." May I ask why putting faith in the Word Of God is idoltry to you? If you toss out the Bible then you toss out Jesus. True, the Bible itself will not save you, but the Bible contains some eternal truths that do save people. If a person has no faith and cannot trust the Bible, then how in the world would he ever come to know Christ? God Bless, Lucy

Subject: Re: A Good Book??? From: Robert Tewart To: John Holmes Date Posted: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:49:22 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: I used to be a Christian, but I'm not anymore. The reason I'm not is that I can't trust in a book that is so full of mistakes and contradictions. Not only that, but the Bible has been revised and changed throughout the centuries? How can anyone put faith in such a book? John John, have you gained any new insights concerning you post about "a good book". I pray you have. Let us know.

Subject: Posting Frequency From: Roger L. Wever To: Everyone Date Posted: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 21:58:45 (EST) Email Address: NA Message:

Subject: mail me From: Ron Miller To: Dean Boelt Date Posted: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 18:17:09 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I just have to hear from you. My Email is ron@locl.net Ron Miller

Subject: CHANGE: an opportunity & a friend From: Roger L. Wever To: Everyone Date Posted: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 18:33:10 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: http://www.crosslink.org/tnb http://www.hows.net/worship-cgi/worshiphook.bat?DOIT=activities&ID1=89448TCC2 Recently the planting of Towel-N-Basin Christian Church project was told by its website host/server that they were going out of business. Since the site was established for over a year with many links from other sites to it, we were disappointed by the news and scrambled to discover another host/server affordable to us. Within ten days before the previous host/server pulled the plug, the new host/server transferred the main part of the site's pages without us paying for the service first. Quite a blessing! Then we discovered their charges were less than half the cost of the previous service. We are overwhelmed with joy over this turn of events (change). Our new address is (http://www.crosslink.org/tnb). We also just set up an active listing (FREE)of various developments with Houses of Worship at (http://www.hows.net)

Subject: Law is binding for Christians From: Vic Eagle To: Everyone Date Posted: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 20:25:58 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Matthew 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Romans 2:13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. Romans 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. Romans 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Romans 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law. 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 2 Timothy 3:17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. James 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law, according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well. (see Leviticus 19:18) 1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 1 John 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 1 John 2:5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 1 John 2:6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. 1 John 2:7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 2 John 1:5 And now I ask you, lady, not as writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. 2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. The fact that Christians are still under the Law does not in any way cancel out the grace of the new covenant. The old covenant, established in Exodus 24 and elaborated in several other OT passages, was about curses for not keeping the Law perfectly. Therefore, a new covenant had to be established (see Hebrews 8 and 9). Under the new covenant, Christians have been redeemed from the curses of the old covenant (see Galatians 3:13) but not from submission to the Law. The Law was part of the old covenant, not the old covenant itself, so it hasn't been revoked. Jesus did not change any OT Laws, he further explained and clarified them. The following passage says that we Christians are slaves. What do slaves do? We work. How do we work? We are slaves to righteousness and obeying the teaching (i.e., the Law): Romans 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? Romans 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, Romans 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness . Romans 6:19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. (NASB) In Paul's letters to the Christian churches, he repeatedly urged them to obey the Law and rephrased its commands: Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; Philippians 2:4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Thus, we see that the Holy Spirit does not possess Christians and do everything for us. We must make our own effort, and sometimes need to be corrected and rebuked. We, not God, are responsible and will be judged for our actions (Hebrews 9:27). Christians are in a spiritual race and must strive to perform well (see 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, Galatians 2:2, Ephesians 5:15-17, Hebrews 12:4-5, Jude 1:3) and we will be rewarded accordingly (see Matthew 6:1, Luke 6:35, 1 Corinthians 3:8, 2 John 1:8, Revelation 22:12). The Bible commands us to love, but love isn't just an emotion, it means action. It means submitting to the Word and thus the Law. This involves effort on our part. We are saved by faith alone, but faith includes our heart and will such that works can be said to be a part of faith, James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." (NASB) Even though we are saved entirely by Christ's shed blood, Paul indicated that we believers need to shed our own blood in our struggle against sin, Hebrews 12:4, "You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;" (NASB) In Jesus, Vic

Subject: Re: Law is binding for Christians From: Vic Eagle To: Vic Eagle Date Posted: Fri, Mar 12, 1999 at 12:44:33 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I credited Paul as author of Hebrews 12:4, but he probably wasn't. The author of Hebrews is unknown. In Jesus, Vic

Subject: Re: Re: Law is binding for Christians From: Lucy To: Vic Eagle Date Posted: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 02:09:33 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I credited Paul as author of Hebrews 12:4, but he probably wasn't. The author of Hebrews is unknown. In Jesus, Vic Then who do you think authored Hebrews? Pax Christi, Lucy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Law is binding for Christians From: Bud To: Lucy Date Posted: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 10:45:56 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I credited Paul as author of Hebrews 12:4, but he probably wasn't. The author of Hebrews is unknown. In Jesus, Vic Then who do you think authored Hebrews? Pax Christi, Lucy At this point, the best we can do is offer theories.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Law is binding for Christians From: Given O. Blakely To: Lucy Date Posted: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 11:27:13 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Like all of Scripture, God is the Author. That is how we are to view it. The instrument moved by the Holy Spirit to record it is incidental. It is the word OF GOD. In Jesus, Brother Given

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Law is binding for Christians From: Robert Tewart To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 13:29:42 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Like all of Scripture, God is the Author. That is how we are to view it. The instrument moved by the Holy Spirit to record it is incidental. It is the word OF GOD. In Jesus, Brother Given This is an excellent point. I say this because I think that too often, people are trying to figure out little facets of scripture that are irrelevant to our salvation.

Subject: Re: Law is binding for Christians From: Bud To: Vic Eagle Date Posted: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 11:03:22 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Vic, What I find striking is how people will say: 1. that they are saved by "faith alone," which means they think they can do anything they want, and 2. that they are saved by "faith alone," which leaves out the issue of God's grace entirely. Both ideas are wrong. We are NOT saved by faith alone. As Ephesians 2:8 says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast." We are first and foremost saved by grace. If God didn't give us grace, it wouldn't matter how much "faith" we had. Faith is directly related to God's grace. Our faith is placed in the fact that God has grace and mercy for us. How do works fit in the picture? The book of James tells us that a "dead faith," or a faith that does not produce works, cannot save us. Perhaps the formula should read this way: We are saved by grace, through faith, expressed in deeds. Can one of those attributes of salvation be missing? Probably not. Following The Way, Bud

Subject: Re: Re: Law is binding for Christians From: Given O. Blakely To: Bud Date Posted: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 11:32:36 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: The Lord said it precisely--"By grace, through faith." It is not our prerogative to add to His statement or make attempts to fit into our perceptions. Elsewhere it is written, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law" (Rom 3:28). The idea is not that works are excluded, but that they are valid only as they spring from faith. It simply is not possible to have faith and NOT work. That is why James said, "faith without works is dead, being alone." Those who profess faith, yet balk at what the Lord commands, have not told the truth when they say they believe, Faith is the cause, and works are the evidence--never the cause. In jesus, Brother Given

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Law is binding for Christians From: Bud To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 00:37:01 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: The Lord said it precisely--'By grace, through faith.' It is not our prerogative to add to His statement or make attempts to fit into our perceptions. Elsewhere it is written, 'Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law' (Rom 3:28). The idea is not that works are excluded, but that they are valid only as they spring from faith. It simply is not possible to have faith and NOT work. That is why James said, 'faith without works is dead, being alone.' Those who profess faith, yet balk at what the Lord commands, have not told the truth when they say they believe, Faith is the cause, and works are the evidence--never the cause. In jesus, Brother Given Amen.

Subject: Re: Re: Law is binding for Christians From: Vic Eagle To: Bud Date Posted: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 15:44:34 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Bud, I basically agree with you. You know you're saved when, by God's grace, you believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord. Jesus is your Lord means you're submitting to his commands, which are based upon and include the Law. When you believe this, then you have everlasting life. In Jesus, Vic

Subject: Re: Re: Law is binding for Christians From: Vic Eagle To: Bud Date Posted: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 15:45:51 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Bud, I basically agree with you. You know you're saved when, by God's grace, you believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord. Jesus is your Lord means you're submitting to his commands, which are based upon and include the Law. When you believe this, then you have everlasting life. In Jesus, Vic

Subject: BROKEN PEOPLE Need A Merciful God. From: Samuel Huffman To: Everyone Date Posted: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 12:19:47 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: If so, the Eternal God of the Hebrews has now raised His son Jesus the Hebrew prophet and Messiah from the world of the dead on your and your shattered friend's behalf. Through Messiah's resurrection from the realm of the dead, the Eternal God has freely forgiven me for having violated His divine laws. He has also granted me a spirit of new life to live under His watchcare, freed from a shatterred and distorted past. He is extending that same forgiveness and rescue to you and your valuable friend. In the Ancient Hebrew writings (bible) Acts 13:29-41 gives more details on how Messiah's resurrection from the dead involves you, me, and your friend. Yes, we were all involved there when that transaction occurred in the spirit. No one was forgotten. Also, verse 41 gives a stern warning. If your heart has been hearing the call to be freed from a selfish and distorted past, and to begin life anew, check into this. Your're not afraid of the ancient Hebrew writings are you? Good. Then take a moment to ponder the forgiveness and new life described there. However... As others of us have, count the cost before you consider receiving this gift from the living God of the Hebrews. For it is better to have never known the truth in your heart than to have known it and then turned back. Read the warning in verse 41 again. Jehovah God, Lord of the Hebrews, the God whom I now serve and obey, felt I was worth rescuing when my life had hit bottom. He feels you and your weary friend are worth His time and efforts, too. And certainly you are. samhuffman27@hotmail.com For several months I've been posting this message , or another similar one, on various occult boards on the web. I always use my real name and include my e-mail address in the message. It has drawn amazing responses and opened doors for continual communications on several of those boards. Also, including my e-mail address has caused some Christian surfers at the occult sites to e-mail me words of encouragement, and to seek counsel in their own walks with the LORD God. Sad to say, in months past I had posted a very similar message on several "Christianity" boards and received a lot of flak for it's content. It seemed that I had entered the territory of the "error spotters" and the "doctrine correctors". I was accused of "preaching to the choir" instead of to the "lost". It was criticizm city. By the way, I'm not complaining at all. I just mention it for the benefit of those readers who may feel that they have been called to witness to the so called "occultists." Please remember that they are not the competition. They are people whose sins have alrready been paid for on the cross just as yours and mine have been. And they are people for whom Messiah has risen from the world of the dead with a spirit of new life to share into them when they are ready to yield. The same as for you and me. "Esteem others as better than yourselves" and you begin to see them without their tags and labels. You begin to see them as Jesus and Father see them, ie. worth the time. So please "minister" to them as a servant and seldom as a corrector. If this makes sense to you, Father will give you the words to share when you need them. Have a peaceful and honorable day. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: Re: BROKEN PEOPLE Need A Merciful God. From: AMEN To: Samuel Huffman Date Posted: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 10:49:14 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Do you have a friend who has broken his or her life as I once did mine? If so, the Eternal God of the Hebrews has now raised His son Jesus the Hebrew prophet and Messiah from the world of the dead on your and your shattered friend's behalf. Through Messiah's resurrection from the realm of the dead, the Eternal God has freely forgiven me for having violated His divine laws. He has also granted me a spirit of new life to live under His watchcare, freed from a shatterred and distorted past. He is extending that same forgiveness and rescue to you and your valuable friend. In the Ancient Hebrew writings (bible) Acts 13:29-41 gives more details on how Messiah's resurrection from the dead involves you, me, and your friend. Yes, we were all involved there when that transaction occurred in the spirit. No one was forgotten. Also, verse 41 gives a stern warning. If your heart has been hearing the call to be freed from a selfish and distorted past, and to begin life anew, check into this. Your're not afraid of the ancient Hebrew writings are you? Good. Then take a moment to ponder the forgiveness and new life described there. However... As others of us have, count the cost before you consider receiving this gift from the living God of the Hebrews. For it is better to have never known the truth in your heart than to have known it and then turned back. Read the warning in verse 41 again. Jehovah God, Lord of the Hebrews, the God whom I now serve and obey, felt I was worth rescuing when my life had hit bottom. He feels you and your weary friend are worth His time and efforts, too. And certainly you are. samhuffman27@hotmail.com For several months I've been posting this message , or another similar one, on various occult boards on the web. I always use my real name and include my e-mail address in the message. It has drawn amazing responses and opened doors for continual communications on several of those boards. Also, including my e-mail address has caused some Christian surfers at the occult sites to e-mail me words of encouragement, and to seek counsel in their own walks with the LORD God. Sad to say, in months past I had posted a very similar message on several 'Christianity' boards and received a lot of flak for it's content. It seemed that I had entered the territory of the 'error spotters' and the 'doctrine correctors'. I was accused of 'preaching to the choir' instead of to the 'lost'. It was criticizm city. By the way, I'm not complaining at all. I just mention it for the benefit of those readers who may feel that they have been called to witness to the so called 'occultists.' Please remember that they are not the competition. They are people whose sins have alrready been paid for on the cross just as yours and mine have been. And they are people for whom Messiah has risen from the world of the dead with a spirit of new life to share into them when they are ready to yield. The same as for you and me. 'Esteem others as better than yourselves' and you begin to see them without their tags and labels. You begin to see them as Jesus and Father see them, ie. worth the time. So please 'minister' to them as a servant and seldom as a corrector. If this makes sense to you, Father will give you the words to share when you need them. Have a peaceful and honorable day. samhuffman27@hotmail.com Not only have I "been there, done that," I am currently in such a place of service where "my own shoot me" due to jealousy and/or perceived threats of sheep-stealing. I worship with a good congregation now, but was removed from membership of another and given this reason: "We believe that being a church planter and a member of our congregation is a conflict of interest." As is often the case, the only major opposition encountered to date is from so called (perhaps true ones too) fellow-believers for the planting of Towel-N-Basin Christian Church. Grace and peace to you all. 2 Corinthians 13:14

Subject: Re: Re: BROKEN PEOPLE Need A Merciful God. From: Samuel To: AMEN Date Posted: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 12:06:04 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hello, Amen. Samuel here. I'm glad to see that my message is usable. Have a peaceful and honorable day. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: LOST- SAVED From: Neal Griffin To: Everyone Date Posted: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 14:57:21 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: A Christian arises in the morning saved only because he prayed for forgiveness before he dropped off to sleep. He does well for an hour or so, but running late to work, he does not come to a complete stop at a stop sign. He sins. But in the hustle and bustle of the busy traffic, he does not reflect on his sin. The reality of it has not sunk in. Is he lost? This very basic Bible question needs to be addressed because, somehow, sincere Christians are being led to believe that they are lost-saved all day long every day. What a bleak picture this presents. Small wonder that there is so little joy in so many of the churches of our day. Small wonder that so many drop out and give up on religion. This lost-saved dogma reduces the Gospel, which is God's power unto salvation, to a time sequence happenstance predicated upon whether or not one has recently prayed for forgiveness. Our hope is based upon how lucky we are when the end comes, instead of on the blood of Jesus. Does God have the prerogative to "count not our sins against us" ? Does He have the power to " impute not our sins against us" ? Does He not have the power to impute our faith for righteousness? "We have been (past tense) saved by God's gracious love through faith". Ephesians 2:8. It is not be our sinless perfection that we are saved. Neither is it based on our asking for forgiveness every few minutes. A dear sister who had served Christ faithfully for over fifty years, when asked if she was going to heaven, replied that she " was not sure". She " could not speak for the future". Now, I am not certain, exactly, what she was trying to say, but I am reasonably sure that she was uncertain about her salvation. Somehow, she had missed the promised "exceeding joy" of her salvation. Somehow, her legalistic leanings had convinced her that salvation results from perfect law keeping. Ephesians 2:9 reveals, "It does not come from human effort". Romans 8:l declares that, "There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus". This information is so full of comfort. We should be filled with joy. We should be able to announce with great confidence that we are gloriously saved, praise God, we are saved. God's very own Son has bought (past tense) us with a great price and has elevated us to be joint heirs in His divine family. What a tremendous impact this should have on our lives. What joy it should cause in our hearts. We are not lost-saved all day long everyday. We are washed in the precious blood of Jesus. We are safe in that great haven, and He is able to keep that which we have committed.Titus 5:3-8 declares that, "He saved us (past tense again) by a washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit. Salvation did not come from any good deeds that we ourselves did. No, it came by God's mercy. Through Jesus Christ, our Savior, God generously poured out the Holy Spirit upon us. This is how we have been (past tense) made right with God. This is how we have become heirs. By God's gracious love we have the hope of eternal life. This statement is something you can trust". Brethren, I did not compose this passage. It was composed by God. You can open your Bible and read it for yourselves. It is trustworthy and too simple to be misunderstood. Don't let anyone rob you of the comfort and great joy that we read about in God's Word. Please think on these things. I believe them to be true to the Word. Neal Griffin l05l4 Bar X Trail Helotes, Texas 78023 ngriffin12@aol.com

Subject: Re: LOST- SAVED From: Lucy To: Neal Griffin Date Posted: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 16:56:25 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I wanted to ask this question last night, but I couldn't get it to post. Anyway, this message brings up the perfect opportunity. To those who believe in eternal security, why? To those who oppose eternal security, why? Pax Christi, Lucy

Subject: Re: Re: LOST- SAVED From: challenger To: Lucy Date Posted: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 10:56:40 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Please answer both "whys" for us in your own understanding. This will provide a foundation to specifically address your search for truth in the matter. Jesus is the answer....Read the Word.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: LOST- SAVED From: Lucy To: challenger Date Posted: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 17:11:36 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Verses for ES: St. John 10:28, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 4:30, I John 3:9 Verses against ES: Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-27, Romans 11:22, I Cor 9:27 These are probably not all of the verses that *seem* to teach these two contradictory doctrines. I think the questions also raise a important issue that directly relates to the issue of eternal security, that of how to apply the Death of Christ on us. Did He die to open up the gates of Heaven or did He die for more than that? Another question that directly relates to ES is that of how we are saved by grace. Is is faith and works or is it sola fide? PC, Lucy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: LOST- SAVED From: challenger To: Lucy Date Posted: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 11:13:10 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Verses for? Examine closely context, conduct word studies and let Scripture interpret Scripture. We dont have major time to share: Jn 10:28 "no one" indicates those from without which doesnt include one's self. Rm 8 "predestined" does not mean predetermined as some insist upon. The context of Ep 4 is of the present life/reality. Study "sealed." We are not exactly sure how you see that this applies to 1 Jn 3.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LOST- SAVED From: Lucy To: challenger Date Posted: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 15:43:42 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Yes, I do believe Romans 8 does teach predestination by election, however, I do not believe that we can limit God. Well, the Holy Spirit seals believers until the day of redemption and in I John he is talking to believers. I think that I *may* have my answer, but more prayer and study is needed to confirm it. Pax Christi, Lucy

Subject: Re: LOST- SAVED From: Roger L. Wever To: Neal Griffin Date Posted: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 10:52:00 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: LOST- SAVED, LOST- SAVED, ALL DAY LONG A Christian arises in the morning saved only because he prayed for forgiveness before he dropped off to sleep. He does well for an hour or so, but running late to work, he does not come to a complete stop at a stop sign. He sins. But in the hustle and bustle of the busy traffic, he does not reflect on his sin. The reality of it has not sunk in. Is he lost? This very basic Bible question needs to be addressed because, somehow, sincere Christians are being led to believe that they are lost-saved all day long every day. What a bleak picture this presents. Small wonder that there is so little joy in so many of the churches of our day. Small wonder that so many drop out and give up on religion. This lost-saved dogma reduces the Gospel, which is God's power unto salvation, to a time sequence happenstance predicated upon whether or not one has recently prayed for forgiveness. Our hope is based upon how lucky we are when the end comes, instead of on the blood of Jesus. Does God have the prerogative to 'count not our sins against us' ? Does He have the power to ' impute not our sins against us' ? Does He not have the power to impute our faith for righteousness? 'We have been (past tense) saved by God's gracious love through faith'. Ephesians 2:8. It is not be our sinless perfection that we are saved. Neither is it based on our asking for forgiveness every few minutes. A dear sister who had served Christ faithfully for over fifty years, when asked if she was going to heaven, replied that she ' was not sure'. She ' could not speak for the future'. Now, I am not certain, exactly, what she was trying to say, but I am reasonably sure that she was uncertain about her salvation. Somehow, she had missed the promised 'exceeding joy' of her salvation. Somehow, her legalistic leanings had convinced her that salvation results from perfect law keeping. Ephesians 2:9 reveals, 'It does not come from human effort'. Romans 8:l declares that, 'There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus'. This information is so full of comfort. We should be filled with joy. We should be able to announce with great confidence that we are gloriously saved, praise God, we are saved. God's very own Son has bought (past tense) us with a great price and has elevated us to be joint heirs in His divine family. What a tremendous impact this should have on our lives. What joy it should cause in our hearts. We are not lost-saved all day long everyday. We are washed in the precious blood of Jesus. We are safe in that great haven, and He is able to keep that which we have committed.Titus 5:3-8 declares that, 'He saved us (past tense again) by a washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit. Salvation did not come from any good deeds that we ourselves did. No, it came by God's mercy. Through Jesus Christ, our Savior, God generously poured out the Holy Spirit upon us. This is how we have been (past tense) made right with God. This is how we have become heirs. By God's gracious love we have the hope of eternal life. This statement is something you can trust'. Brethren, I did not compose this passage. It was composed by God. You can open your Bible and read it for yourselves. It is trustworthy and too simple to be misunderstood. Don't let anyone rob you of the comfort and great joy that we read about in God's Word. Please think on these things. I believe them to be true to the Word. Neal Griffin l05l4 Bar X Trail Helotes, Texas 78023 ngriffin12@aol.com FULL OF JOY & ASSURED on this end. Unfortunately don't have the amount of time to write full response: Repentance doesn't require a "prayer of forgiveness" for every sin commited or all of them together. Yeah, I have given up on the religion you reference above and have exchanged it for relationship. Relationship WITH Christ is far above and better than religion ABOUT (or that which is perceived of) Him. Ultimately salvation is granted us by God through Jesus Christ. Without the Head, we're dead! I am unable to advocate the man-made nonsense of "once saved, always saved" or "blab it and grab it" which seems to be implied or stated in the origin of this string of messages. Giving benefit of doubt, perhaps I am mistaken and you are free to let me know.

Subject: Re: LOST- SAVED From: Marc LeBlanc To: Neal Griffin Date Posted: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 12:34:18 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: You can have hope for somethig that is promised you, but you don't need hope for something you already have. Do you hope for the car that's in your garage? As far as I am still on Earth, I will probably have doubts and I pray to God that He leads me to Him. I still have an immense capacity to sin even though I am dead to my old self and alive TODAY in Christ. (Read 1,2,3 John) I am promised something (Hebrews 4) and I have faith (Hebrews 11) that I will make it there by the grace of and mercy of God. Love and prayers, brother Marc

Subject: Re: LOST- SAVED From: Robert Tewart To: Neal Griffin Date Posted: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 22:43:56 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Neal, The only Christians that I have come across that say you are lost and saved several times a day are those that seemed to be on the extreme side of "full gospel" or "charismatic" Christianity. They have told me that a constant sin-repent mode must be in action in our lives to be sure. --- something like that anyway. My thought is this: I prayed with my Christian sister when I was twelve but I had no victory, no church fellowship, no edification of God's word. I lived sinfully for fifteen years!! But all through the years, the Holy Spirit was telling me to come back. I was convicted many times but became a master of repression. When I finally came back to the Lord, I had decided that I was either never saved in the first place, (which didn't seem to make sense because of the years of conviction) or that I was a long lost prodigal. The point is that it doesn't matter now to me. Today I serve the Lord. Imperfectly, but I am pursuing His Spirit. I want to try and forget and let go of the "what if's" and serve the Lord the best I can today. One last little note: If salvation is a gift, and the bible says that it is--a free one, can it be recinded? I think not! The real question is was it truly accepted in the first place. In His grace, Robert

Subject: Re: LOST- SAVED From: Samuel To: Neal Griffin or anybody else Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 13:18:37 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hello, Neil. Samuel Huffman here. Although I haven't read all of the various responses that have been posted under your message (and what I'm about to suggest may have already been mentioned), I suggest that perhaps a re-wording of the terms used might help the unsure person who may be struggling with the lost/saved question. Since "lost" and "saved" have become somewhat sterotyped words in the Christianity mentality, why not say the same thing by using words like "still perishing" and "rescued" instead. What I mean is, "lost" and "saved" are perceived by many people as religious "measurement" words. ie. "do you got your ticket yet, or don't you got your ticket yet, Bud?" However, "still perishing" or "still trapped", and "rescued" suggest that something has actually changed you within or hasn't changed you within. For about the last 20 years, Neil, I've learned to avoid using the term "saved" very much around church people. I've been using "rescued" instead. Or sometimes I use "delivered", "set free", "re-born" or something like that in an effort to get the hearers out of a traditional religious mind set and into a real life mentality. Using "trapped in the evil" or "rescued, delivered, freed from the evil" it presents a picture that has been lost to a lot of Christianity. I've even stopped refering to Jesus as my personal "saviour". Now i describe him as my personal "Rescuer". The name Jesus literally means 'Jehovah-saves", or I like "Jehovah rescues". I've learned almost never to use "saved" and "lost" when sharing with those who have little or no religious background. Cocaine addicts, burned out prostitutes, and people trashed by nightmare divorces are not immediately concerned about whether they are going to heaven when they die. Paul exprresly pointed that out in Rom. 10:6 when he said "Are you going to heaven" is not the right question to ask. I'd used Romans 10:9,10 for a long time before I finally noticed 10:6. That was an eye opener for me. Broken people need a "rescuer" now, here on planet earth wher the adversary spirit has been smashing them. By the power of Messiaha's resurrection from the realm of the dead, that "rescue" and spirit of a new life to live today are available to them now, not just in the future. "Trapped" and "rescued" are good understandable terms to use on the street. Well, Neil, that's just my suggestion. It seems to have opened doors for me over the years to use real life expressions instead of religious expressions when dealing with damaged lives. You may wish to examine the "BROKEN PEOPLE" message posted several posts above yours. It' a slightly different approach to meeting the same needs. Have a peaceful and honorable day in Messiah Jesus. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: Re: Re: LOST- SAVED From: Lucy To: Samuel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 14:20:24 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Here's your chance Samuel. I am currently looking over the issue of Eternal Security. (I think I know what side I fall on, but need more prayer and study to confirm it.) What would you say to me? Pax Christi, Lucy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: LOST- SAVED From: Samuel To: Lucy Date Posted: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 14:33:54 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Here's your chance Samuel. I am currently looking over the issue of Eternal Security. (I think I know what side I fall on, but need more prayer and study to confirm it.) What would you say to me? Pax Christi, Lucy Hello, Lucy. Thanks for your inquiry. First of all, as Father leads of course, I have observed over the years that many if not most of the people who are trying figure out their stand on eternal security, or the trinity, or the virgin birth or whatever are throwing up a smoke screen of sorts. Sometimes this is done so they won't have to consider the more immediate reality of "Was I really crucified with the Messiah, and it's no longer I who live, but Messiah lives in me?" And, Lucy, "Has Jehovah God's divine spirit that has raised Jesus the messiah from the realm of the dead actually come into me and meade me a totally new divinely empowered person?" In other words, Lucy, am I really the new creation that Father says he has made me? Is it real within me, or is it just my doctrine? "Did I ever truly know that I was 'trapped' in sin (the nature of the devil), and do I truly know now that I have been 'rescued' from that by the power of Messiah's resurrectiion?" "Do I actually blieve this?". True childlike from the heart believing of our God's truth always brings about the fruit of what the humble heart believes. That's first things first, Lucy. Until these basics are established in a person's heart, they really aren't yet a "believer". Eternal security is for the 'believer' not for the debater, the doubter, or the quitter. Only the childlike 'believer'. And genuine childlike 'belief' always rhymes with a humble 'obey'. So, Lucy, I would tend to get you (or anybody else) to step aside from the "how do I sand on Eteranl Security?" for a bit, and ask, instead, " Have I actually been born anew and set free from the life of rebellious, of the devil, sin that has so tormented me within?" Lucy, broken people who are seriously considering suicide can relate to their old life having died on the cross with Jesus. The cross goes beyond just forgivenesss. It goes to "removal" of the old man. And the spirit of divine life now granted theough Messiah Jesus' resurrection from the world of the dead actually activates the divine presence within the believer. It's the "re-birth". "Behold, behold, behold, old things have passed away (died on the cross with the son of our God), and all things have become new (resurrection life 're-birthed' new) by his return from the spirit realm of the dead. And all these things are from God". When Lucy believes that the Son of David's death, burial, and resurrection is truth within her on a childlike level of "belief", then she won't be trying to analyze 'eternal security' very much. Lucy will have a river of living water flowing out of her, and she will be witnessing the power of the Messiah's resurrection to anyhbody who gets close. By the way, Lucy, testifying personally to the power of his resurrection working in your life will often draw persecution your way whereby you grow in patience and understanding. Debating 'eternal security' just attracts more debates. God 'believers' are never God analyzers. And God "analyzers" are never God believers. The believer tend to walk by the spirit, while the analyzer tends to walk more by the mind of his or her own 'soul'. Well, that's a bit long, Lucy, but did you get the drift? It's first things first that actually change a broken person's shattered life and exchanges it for a new one from Jehovah God, Lord of the Hebrews. First things first. Have a peaceful and honorable day. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: LOST- SAVED From: Bud To: Samuel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 00:53:12 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Samuel, Sounds to me like you're giving a lesson in doctrine. Of course, it is always good advice to "put first things first," but there comes a time when issues such as "eternal security" arise. You may feel that this issue is not very important to discuss, but others who may be seeking after some answers may find it to be very important. We have to be sensitive to the seeker's inquiries, even if the questions they ask may seem "irrelevant" to us. As far as the statement, "God 'believers' are never God analyzers. And God 'analyzers' are never God believers," it is important to keep in mind that many times, when someone "analyzes" a doctrine or belief, it is not God who is being analyzed, but the believer. When someone questions a belief or doctrine of yours, keep in mind that he or she may simply be questioning YOU, not God. Personally, I have seen these "analyzers" (the ones who are objective and rational) come to real faith in God. We must NEVER give the impression that questions are wrong, and we must NEVER give the impression that we are never wrong in whatever we say about God. To give such impressions is damaging to ministry and to evangelism. Finally, the believer DOES walk by the Spirit. The Spirit is the Spirit of TRUTH. We must use our studies of doctrine to help us draw closer to the Truth. I appreciate your concern, though. I see that you are concerned about people being changed for the better, and needless debate can hinder that growth process. On this point, I cannot help but agree. I pray that God keep doing a work in your life. Following The Way, Bud

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LOST- SAVED From: To Bud from Samuel To: Bud Date Posted: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 12:57:16 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hello, Bud. Thanks for the words of encouragement. Perhaps what I was trying to say is kind of like Jesus when he said "I thank you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight." That's one reason I suggested to Lucy that kingdom principles are revealed to the childlike heart, and not to those who feel they are skillful at figuring things out and drawing conclusions.. It's a "child" thing with Jehovah God and His messiah. Father has arranged His kingdom so that only the "childlike" can see it as the kingdom moves and function around and in their lives and dealings. Perhaps I could have said that grasping the kingdom is "childlike" spirit-ual, instead of "big-people" reason-able or analytical. It's in the words "hidden" and "revealed". Jesus himself operates on that childlike frequency. "So is everyone who is born of the Spirit". That's entry level. ie. First things first. Thanks again for your words of encouragement. This narrow board is tricky to type on, but I think I'm getting the hang of it without too many typos. Yours in Messiah Jesus, soon returning to conquer and rule on the throne of David. Samuel

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LOST- SAVED From: to Samuel from Bud To: Samuel Date Posted: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 23:50:41 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Samuel, For the most part, I can agree with what you said. It is arrogance (not to mention, idolatry) on man's part to assume that he can reason his way to God. All we know about God is due to the fact that God chose to reveal himself to us. All we know about any "kingdom principles" is what God choses to reveal to us. Certainly we should be childlike - but never childish. Take care brother. Following The Way, Bud

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LOST- SAVED From: Samuel To: to Bud form Samuel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 16:14:14 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Samuel, For the most part, I can agree with what you said. It is arrogance (not to mention, idolatry) on man's part to assume that he can reason his way to God. All we know about God is due to the fact that God chose to reveal himself to us. All we know about any 'kingdom principles' is what God choses to reveal to us. Certainly we should be childlike - but never childish. Take care brother. Following The Way, Bud Hi, Bud. Thanks again for your comments. As you may have notced, I try to stick with a "changed life" presentation instead of doctrinal debating. That's one reason why I spend a whole lot more tome on the occult messageboards than on the Christian religion boards. Have a peaceful and honorable day. Yours in the kingdom, Samuel. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: CS Lewis From: Robert Tewart To: Everyone Date Posted: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 06:51:33 (EST) Email Address: NA Message:

Subject: Re: CS Lewis From: Roger L. Wever To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:16:54 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Sorry, Robert, I have no clue.

Subject: Re: CS Lewis From: Marc LeBlanc To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:08:11 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: There is a quote I have heard often. I believe it is from the great Christian writer, CS Lewis. Loosely paraphrased it says something like, 'God speaks quietly to us in our comfort and loudly to us in our pain.' Basically meaning that sometimes a person has to be in a critical situation before he realizes that God is calling out to him. Anyway, does anyone know the exact reference--Is it CS Lewis and what work of his is it in? Hi Robert, I hace no clue, but try the Christian Quotation of the Day web site at http://www.gospelcom.net/cqod/ You might find the author or even a book by using their search engine. I hope this helps. In Christ, brother Marc

Subject: Re: CS Lewis From: Barry To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 16:29:13 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hi Robert, I'm not sure if that is Lewis or not, although it sounds like something he'd say. If you would read his book The Problem of Pain you would find much insight on this subject. In Christ, Barry

Subject: Re: CS Lewis From: Bud To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 12:53:01 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: There is a quote I have heard often. I believe it is from the great Christian writer, CS Lewis. Loosely paraphrased it says something like, 'God speaks quietly to us in our comfort and loudly to us in our pain.' Basically meaning that sometimes a person has to be in a critical situation before he realizes that God is calling out to him. Anyway, does anyone know the exact reference--Is it CS Lewis and what work of his is it in? Robert, I don't know if the quote came from Lewis (it sounds like it, though). After a quick skimming of "The Problem of Pain" (It's been a while since I read it, and I still haven't read all of it), I found this passage in chapter 8 worth noting: "In an earlier chapter, it was admitted that the pain which alone could rouse the bad man to a knowledge that all was not well, might also lead to a final and unrepented rebellion. And it has been admitted throughout that man has free will and that all gifts to him are therefore two-edged." This probably doesn't answer your question, but I thought it was worth noting anyway. Following The Way, Bud

Subject: The Bottom line From: Bill Dinwiddie To: Everyone Date Posted: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 08:59:48 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I want to be found faithful as a steward. I want to appear in Christ's glory I want to enter the eternal rest in a resurrected body I want to have a complete joy by taking as many others with me as possible Anybody desiring to stop me had better get out of the way. There is a Mighty Stone perfectly cut out of the Mountain, and if you are not with it, you will be ground to powder and blown away by the wind. What a great salavation we have.

Subject: Re: The Bottom line From: GR8GOD4U@aol.com To: Bill Dinwiddie Date Posted: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 10:45:51 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: AMEN, but it is more than an "I want" on this end.

Subject: Re: The Bottom line From: Given O. Blakely To: Bill Dinwiddie Date Posted: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 14:55:53 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Praise the Lord, brother Bill. I am sorry to hear it is "more" than anyone would want -- God simply has nothing else to offer. This is the "end" (or objective) of our salvation. Thank God He has revealed that grand conclusion, and given us His own Spirit to assist us in preparing for it. Brother Given

Subject: Re: Re: The Bottom line From: gr8god4u@aol.com To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 22:09:35 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Misunderstanding is one of the frequently encountered limitations of messageboard and emailing as demonstrated here by implication. In Him, Roger

Subject: Re: Re: Re: The Bottom line From: Marc LeBlanc To: gr8god4u@aol.com Date Posted: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:33:35 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I didn't understand a thing on this thread exept that brother Bill is on fire for God. Praise and Glory to God! brother Marc

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Bottom line From: Bud To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 12:36:23 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I didn't understand a thing on this thread exept that brother Bill is on fire for God. Praise and Glory to God! brother Marc Marc, You're not alone there. Peace, Bud

Subject: Re: The Bottom line From: Samuel Huffman To: Bill Dinwiddie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 12:54:46 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hello, Bill. Sam Huffman here. Today is my first visit to this board so I hope I'm typing in the right space. Your comment about being ground to powder is a good point and well taken. When the son of David returns to conquer and rule, he will indeed grind up a lot of rebels. They will indeed cry out for the rocks to cover them to protect them from the wrath of the lamb. How right you are. As an extra, may I offer and additional response that may be usable when someone seems to be desiring to stop you. Try this one..."Anybody desiring to stop me had better get out of the way because I'll love you and forgive you so quick that it will make your head spin, just as I've been loved and forgiven." Consider adding that to your repertoire. Don't toss away the "grind to powder" thing, but consider having the "forgive you so quick" response ready, too. Who knows when you'll need it for those who "know not what they do"? Yours in the risen Messiah. samhuffman27@hotmail.com

Subject: Where did everybody go? From: Marc LeBlanc To: Everyone Date Posted: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 16:08:51 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Am I all alone in here? Nobody writes anymore? Love and prayers, brother Marc

Subject: Re: Where did everybody go? From: Robert Tewart To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 02:22:13 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: You're right Marc, but as brother Given says, people are not as interested in eternal matters as they should be. I have bookmarked this message board and check it daily but there usually isn't much new. Here's something though. I recently had the privelege and blessing to lead a co-worker to Jesus. Or so I thought. This is the first time that I have submitted to the Lord in this area, (witnessing). Well, back at work it seemed like business as usual. She did not seem to have changed at all. In fact she is exactly the same as before we talked. Let me point out that only a fraction of our discussion took place at work--the rest was online via instant messages. But she prayed with me and said that she was making a decision for Christ. I know that it is now in the hands of the Lord but I feel kind of useless....like I did something wrong. I know that I am not able to convert someone--only the Lord does that, I just question if I used the right approach. Tonite she actually sought my council and I thought, "great, she has a question about the bible or something" but she just wanted to whine about the guy who was supposed to move in with her changing his mind!! Whaaat??? I thought. Am I missing something.

Subject: Re: Re: Where did everybody go? From: Marc LeBlanc To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:58:58 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hi Robert! How nice to hear from someone! ;-) How are you Robert? Thank you so very much for sharing. You said you feel like you did something wrong. Dear brother, I understand how you feel. But you did nothing wrong. You talked to her about Christ! Wow! She will make her decision. You have given her something to chew on. I know of a lady who was friends with another Christian lady for 20 years before she was baptized. I have a friend in Ottawa, Canada who I pray for. He sent me a mail message one day to tell me that he had an urgent need to talk with me. So we met in a chat room. We spent the evening talking about his girlfriends. I was sad and disapointed. Someone told me that we're not in the business of converting people. I just want to talk about Jesus and let people know that salvation is necessary. By God's grace and mercy this will hit listening ears. Sometimes, I feel like nobody is listening, but I have faith that God will lead me. Two weeks ago, I met my cousin in Canada. He told me that someone had gossiped that I had joined a weird religion. This made him very curious. He was concerned about me. Now he believes! Isn't that great? Praise the Lord. The Bible tells us to "love the Lord your God with all your heart" and also to treat others as we would like to be treated. That truth opened my eyes to God's grace and it set me free. Instead of expecting friendship from others, I am trying to understand that God wants me to be the friend. Glad you wrote Robert! Hope to hear from you again! Love and prayers, brother Marc

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Where did everybody go? From: Robert Tewart To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 15:22:14 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Marc, thanks for your quick response. It's always great to get feedback from fellow believers. Actually, I had been strugling withe the "witnessing" issue for a long time. Thoughts of being a hypocrite among other things made it a tough battle for me before I finally submitted. Don't get me wrong, this is something I wanted to do but difficult none the less. I came across a teaching resource (a seminar on cassette tape) by Bill Faye. It is called "Sharing Jesus without an argument." It is a method sharing or witnessing that focuses around your asking questions and having the person read the selected scriptures for themselves out loud. The idea is that it gets away from being argumentative because your just asking questions. For instance, one of the questions is, "If you died tonite, where would you go?" (person answers "heaven because I'm a a good person") then you say, "If you were wrong, would you want to know" --and so on. Faye admits that his method is only one method and should be viewed as just one way to share Christ. The idea of Faye's method is that you can share anytime anywhere with anyone. He cited an instance on an airline as the plane was taxiing to the terminal. He says that any conversation you are having with a person can turn into an opportunity to share Christ. My feelings after I returned to work the next day were that maybe I moved to fast with too much information--that maybe my sharing should have taken place over a period of time and not just one conversation. Your added comments would be welcomed. A brother in Christ, Robert.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where did everybody go? From: Marc LeBlanc To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 15:52:57 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hi Robert! I've never heard of Bill Faye but I'd like to get those tapes though. > My feelings after I returned to work the next day were > that maybe I moved to fast with too much information-- > that maybe my sharing should have taken place over a > period of time and not just one conversation. Yes, brother, I know how that feels: the wrong kind of butterflies. One thing I realized is that I was not satisfied with saying nothing. After a while this feeling got worst. That's why I started sending letters every month. I don't know if there is a good way or a bad way to witness. Some people tell me to love your friends into Christ and others and told me to let the love of Christ shine. Then I asked myself, how? It took me a while to understand that I am to love my Lord with all my heart. Them it took me a while, but still, what sets me free is that it's God love in me that finds a way. There's not just one way. I left a Bible once on my sister's bed side table. She read some of it that night. I don't want to argue, and I don't want to cause any walls to grow between me and others, but as far as I can help it, I will treat others as I would like to be treated. I remember the man who baptized me. He wasn't argumentative although I knew what he stood for. There was no doubt that he was a Christian. I turned to him for advice and later, he became a good friend and he also baptized me. Sometimes, I was so eager that I think perhaps I was more destructive that helpful. Given said "Put the burden of friendship on your shoulders, not others." This is God's love to do this. When I changed that perspective, I felt free. Forgive me brother Robert if I don't have much of a sequence in my thoughts this afternoon. :-) With love and prayers, brother Marc

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where did everybody go? From: Marc LeBlanc To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 16:20:05 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hi again brother Robert! :-) Here's another thought floating around in my head. I used to try and separate myself from everything and everybody that I thought was not preaching the Truth. Can you imagine that? Also, I was confined to an almost legalistic attitude about anything and everything. The kind that only breaths and worships on Sundays. :-) Yet, now, I would rather spend more time with the brethren. There were boards and lists where I had become a lurker because I was offended by everything and not only offended but so argumentative, to the point where all conversations I started would turn into arguments! Can you imagine that! :-) I used to shun Promise Keepers because I disagree with the organization. I still do but I now do everything I can to attend promise keepers meetings in my town now, because I like to be with the guys and eat donuts with them! I also like to sing praises to the Lord. They know what I stand for and I love to be around the guys! Do you understand what I am trying to understand? I hope this helps. Love and prayers, brother Marc

Subject: Re: Re: Where did everybody go? From: Lucy To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:43:23 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Why don't you invite this women to church? Also realise that we never "lead someone to the Lord", it is His Majesty that draws us to Him! Saint John 6:44 She is not in your hands, but His. Pray for her, as I will. Pax Christi, Lucy

Subject: Re: Where did everybody go? From: Roger L. Wever To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 10:48:06 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hi, Salut, Bonjour, Laba Diena.... Am I all alone in here? Nobody writes anymore? Love and prayers, brother Marc Thanks for calling me a "nobody." LOL If you have "Christ in you," you are never alone anywhere.

Subject: Re: Re: Where did everybody go? From: Marc LeBlanc To: Roger L. Wever Date Posted: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 16:08:26 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hi Roger! Sorry, I didn't want to call you a nobody. Love and prayers, .\\arcus

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Where did everybody go? From: gr8god4u@aol.com To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 22:11:34 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hi Roger! Sorry, I didn't want to call you a nobody. Love and prayers, .\\arcus Greetings! No hard (or soft) feelings on this end.

Subject: Re: Where did everybody go? From: Lucy To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:32:26 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hi, Salut, Bonjour, Laba Diena.... Am I all alone in here? Nobody writes anymore? Love and prayers, brother Marc Bonjour to you too! I use to post a long time ago, although I don't know what name I used! They had a crash of some sort a long time ago. I think I was posting on something about Tradition . . . Salut, Lucy

Subject: Re: Re: Where did everybody go? From: Marc L. To: Lucy Date Posted: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:36:56 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Bonsoir Lucy, and greetings from Platteville Wisconsin! Gathering with Christians sure beats a messageboard but a message board is nice too when you're not alone on it. :-) Parlez-vous Francais? In Christ, brother Marc

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Where did everybody go? From: Lucy To: Marc L. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:51:05 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Bonsoir Lucy, and greetings from Platteville Wisconsin! Gathering with Christians sure beats a messageboard but a message board is nice too when you're not alone on it. :-) Parlez-vous Francais? In Christ, brother Marc Je parle peu Francais. That's probably not correct, but I'm in my very first college term of French I using the Capretz method of learning it! Wish me luck and be sure to pray that I study the language more! We are now just getting into moi, toi, etc. Message boards are a lot more funner when its more than you :) PC, Lucy

Subject: Set Free! From: Marc LeBlanc To: Everyone Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 12:12:55 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I grasped something today that never stuck to me before. Imagine that all the nuclear power in the world was concentrated in one room. Imagine that the walls of this room were thicker than city walls. Now imagine all that power blasting out of those walls! God's love is stronger than the thickest blindness. God's love is brighter than all the confusions and all the pet theologies this world can invent. God's love is so patient and meek that it can carry a rose petal through a volcano irruption and a hurricane and an earth quake all at the same time. God's love is so beautiful and so generous that it can pierce through the stones of any heart. It can make me see beyond a snow-cold wall the size of Jupiter and no matter how thick the terror of evil may be spread on this planet, God is here , saving. Glory and praise be to God! Oh God fill my heart with your love! Fill me up until I overflow! Make me sneeze your love on all the people I meet.

Subject: Re: Set Free! From: Robert Tewart To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 11:38:01 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Marc, I wish you would be a little more descriptive in your writing. : -> ) As always, Brother Robert

Subject: Re: Re: Set Free! From: Annonymous Brother To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 22:13:21 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Set Free! From: Bud To: Annonymous Brother Date Posted: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 01:15:50 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Isn't "Anonymous Brother" an oxymoron? (Just checking) Anyway, Add my "Amen" to the list. Peace, Bud

Subject: Today's Verse! WOW! From: Marc LeBlanc To: Everyone Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 09:55:22 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Have you read the "Today's verse" (from http://www.GOSHEN.net/) today? Love the Lord you God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. --Matthew 22:37-39 What got me was the commentary: > THOUGHTS ABOUT TODAY'S VERSE... > Some things are just not very complicated. Oh my! Where has this brother been living? > Living for Jesus can be boiled down to two principles: > love God with everything I am and have, and love others > and treat them as I would like to be treated. Not too hard > to understand. Truly sounds easy when it's put that way. And truly I've met Christians in my short Christian life that display this Christian truth in their daily walk (this is more a perception of mine than a biblical truth). It didn't matter that I was not a Christian before. A loving man came and shined Jesus on me and later plunged me to victory! I would like to learn to be loving like Jesus wants me to be. My question is this: When you meet someone...Are you going to share the fruits of the Spirit to this person or are you going to act out the wrath of "Joe righteous" on this person? I think I've been destructive some times, rather than "giving". The Dr. Lipchitz in me sometimes wants a say, but it's Jesus that does the real loving! I ask this because during the last week, I've been facing a challenge concerning my friends and family. Some obviously don't share what I believe from the Bible is the truth. What am I expecting from them? This is probably not the right way to approach anyone. I realize that there must be something Jesus wanted His followers to share: Love the Lord you God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. --Matthew 22:37-39 To living this truth, I've been slower than a bucket of molasses rolling down a hill in January. > I guess it's living it that is the challenge! Yes, there is a challenge in this. with love and prayers, brother Marc <"}}}><

Subject: Re: Today's Verse! WOW! From: Debby LeBlanc To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 10:35:39 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I agree with what was written however I wonder & maybe we could ask how one overcomes their frustration when dealing with unbelievers. I feel passionately that EVERYONE needs to accept Jesus in their hearts & I feel like people are slapping me in the face when they don't see that, I feel like Jesus is watching & crying because he DIED for us & so many people don't seem to care! Do know what I mean? The bible says that struggle in life give us perseverance, perseverance leads to character, & character to hope....that is what I continue to remind myself of. Thanks for passing along the email :)

Subject: Re: Re: Today's Verse! WOW! From: Marc LeBlanc To: Debby LeBlanc Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 10:38:22 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I agree with you! I know how you feel! I feel the same when crowded by a world that praises itself and does not acknowledge the ruling Lord who gives life! They deny the great Creator and then give His children a rough time in every sense of the phrase. I know what you mean. However, look at who baptized you. How does he approach the subject? Does he abject? Of course he does but what have you seen from him? What did he give you? He did not expect anything from you when you first met him, but he showed you a love that turned your life upside right. When we fall into the hands of a crowd who's only concern is their pet theologies and our demise, remember that you still have a choice. You can act like a bully or you can give them God's love. When they will meet up with God on Judgement Day, they will have the same book to judge them. Our present walk with the Lord is crucial in God's eyes, because He chose to work through the hands of His children. Do you understand what I am trying to understand? your loving husband, Marc

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Today's Verse! WOW! From: Marc LeBlanc To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 11:25:35 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Wow! and AMEN! Read This! http://www.wotruth.com/love.htm

Subject: More Humor From: Robert Tewart To: Everyone Date Posted: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 13:22:27 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: A clerk at a Christian bookstore walks up to a customer at the WWJD? display and says "May I help you find anything?" "No thanks" said the customer, "I'm just trying to decide if Jesus would were this bracelet"

Subject: Re: More Humor From: Roger To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 02:18:39 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Being that I wear a WWJD wrist band, I found this little cartoon amusing. A clerk at a Christian bookstore walks up to a customer at the WWJD? display and says 'May I help you find anything?' 'No thanks' said the customer, 'I'm just trying to decide if Jesus would were this bracelet' LOL from Roger

Subject: Humor From: Robert Tewart To: Everyone Date Posted: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 13:18:02 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: "Oh" said the friend, "being in the body, you know, the body of Christ--believers. As far as the flesh, don't worry because your covered in the blood" At this the new believer shook his head and thought "I wonder if there is a Christian-English dictionary I can get my hands on."

Subject: Re: Humor From: Roger again To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 02:22:00 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I heard a story of a new Christian that didn't get some of the 'Christianese' when he became a new believer. A brother in Christ approached him and said 'don't fear anything, brother, your in the body now. But be careful, don't get caught up in the flesh.' Left somewhat confused he approached another Christian and said 'what's this about being in the body and not being in the flesh?' 'Oh' said the friend, 'being in the body, you know, the body of Christ--believers. As far as the flesh, don't worry because your covered in the blood' At this the new believer shook his head and thought 'I wonder if there is a Christian-English dictionary I can get my hands on.' ROFL now - so true, most Xtians take their nomenclature for granted. New believers get to experience tongues first hand if they are not careful.

Subject: Scientology From: Roger L. Wever To: Everyone Date Posted: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 00:11:16 (EST) Email Address: NA Message:

Subject: Re: Scientology From: Robert Tewart To: Roger L. Wever Date Posted: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 13:25:01 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: No tidbits of wisdom here brother, but I am curious as to what the basic tenants of Scientology are.

Subject: Re: Re: Scientology From: Roger L. Wever To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 23:00:37 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: No tidbits of wisdom here brother, but I am curious as to what the basic tenants of Scientology are. This cult does not believe in HELL. They believe: Jesus is a legend of millions of years ago. There are many gods. Man is not evil, has no need to repent. Salvation is universal. Reincarnation. < --- NOT SOMETHING I DESIRE TO TAKE HOLD OF!

Subject: Shameless Plug for my site From: Barry To: Everyone Date Posted: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 22:40:17 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I hope Given doesn't mind me plugging my site here but I have made lots of updates that I'd like you to know about. We now have a free Christian e-mail service you can sign up for called "Saintmail". Not only can you access your e-mail on the web if you desire, you can set it up as a POP3 account if you're e-mail software allows for multiple mailboxes. We have also added "PastorSearch", a job posting service for those involved in any type of ministry, with any denomination/non-denomination, etc... The entire site has been redesigned for ultra-fast loading. You can check us out at: The Pastor's Helper In Christ, Barry

Subject: Friendship From: Marc LeBlanc To: Everyone Date Posted: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 09:47:27 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Good morning! My wife and I are on vacation. We've traveled from Platteville, WI to northern New-Brunswick, Canada. I must say, that they have much more snow in Canada right now, than we can ever expect in Platteville! :-) Saint-Basile, New-Brunswick is my home town. I have very few opportunities to visit. This is why I don't mind the cold. :-) One of my friends from high school met up last evening for coffee. We discussed his work term in Vietnam. The man left me with this thought. On the subject of being in a foreign land he said: "Remember, it is not them who need you but you who need them". He made me think about the attitude I have towards my friends and relatives and brothers and sisters in Christ. To give love and friendship rather than expecting it first is quite a u-turn, but it reminds me that we need the Lord, not the other way around. In the Christian life, I used to say, "I will either have to duck or pucker 'cause they'll either kiss me or take a swing at me." I'd rather be a good friend first. I'm sure I'll always find ways to get in trouble. I abject when people stiff up to the words of the Bible. However, what do I have in my heart? Do I brush people with stiffness or do I share with them the love of Christ? The Lord will lead. I hope and pray for this. In Christ, brother Marc

Subject: Prayer & Request From: Roger L. Wever To: Everyone Date Posted: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 10:42:35 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: REQUEST: Two days ago, we were notified by our website host/server which we have had for well over a year announced that they are going out of business. Do you know of any host/servers where we can transfer this (http://www.christianchurches.org/tnb)existing site? We are expecting a partial refund, but only have about $150/yr. to dedicate to this aspect of this church planting project. Thanks for sharing your comments, ideas and suggestions.

Subject: Re: Prayer & Request From: Marc LeBlanc To: Roger L. Wever Date Posted: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 09:32:23 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Good morning! It's a bright and snow-covered day in New-Brunswick! (Canada) brother Wever, if you don't expect to use more than 11 Megs of disk space for your web site, couldn't you use Geocities? They would host your Internet pages for free. Other than that, I would suggest Vservers. However, this is more expensive. brother Marc

Subject: Re: Prayer & Request From: Barry To: Roger L. Wever Date Posted: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 22:36:33 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Roger, Try http://www.xoom.com and get 11 megs of space for free. If you want a Christian company go to http://www.ihood.net They only provide 2-3 megs of space but will give you a subdomain name, such as: http://yourname.ihood.net, free auto-responders, guestbooks, e-mail aliases, etc... I have signed up and am considering moving my site, "The Pastor's Helper" there. BTW, aren't you the one who contacted me about posting a help wanted ad on "PastorSearch"? I would gladly post your listing for free if you'll just send me the info you want posted. I understand you're under a tight budget. Just e-mail me with the info. In Christ, Barry

Subject: Overeating From: Patti To: Everyone Date Posted: Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 14:28:10 (EST) Email Address: NA Message:

Subject: Re: Overeating From: Bud To: Patti Date Posted: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 00:10:27 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Thank you so much for your answers. I have participated in Weigh Down, and am having a hard time forgiving myself when I overeat.I pray that I won't overeat, then do, then hate myself more.Any suggentions for me? I do want to please God. Patti, This may seem a bit odd to say, but my suggestion to you is that you choose to not eat (let me explain). What I mean is, PRAY and FAST. I do not mean starve yourself, and I do not mean go on a crash course diet. In fact, my suggestion to pray and fast has more to do with your spirit than your stomach. We all face "dragons" in our lives. For some, it's lust. For others, it's hatred. For me, it's being a "workaholic." For you, it's overeating. When we pray and fast, we are putting into practice that often neglected part of the fruit of the Spirit: Self-Control. Also, it is a time for us to reflect, rely, focus, and listen to GOD. When we fast, we are removing obstacles that hinder us from growing closer to God. Your desire to please God is commendable. God is pleased with us when we put him first. If you have never fasted before, I suggest that you speak with your minister (perhaps even your doctor) and get his input before you do it. But in all things, remember to pray. And remember that God forgives - God makes us blameless when we come to him, so we can be free from guilt. "To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy -- to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen." ~Jude 24-25 Following The Way, Bud

Subject: Re: Overeating From: Robert To: Patti Date Posted: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 12:20:15 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Thank you so much for your answers. I have participated in Weigh Down, and am having a hard time forgiving myself when I overeat.I pray that I won't overeat, then do, then hate myself more.Any suggentions for me? I do want to please God.Patti, If you have participated in weigh down then you know that Gwen's program is not a new set of rules. You don't have to be legalistic. In fact, that would make matters worse as it would attending a legalistic church that was more focused on tradition than on Jesus. Like any temptation in this world, food and the unhealthy (physically and spiritually) pursuit to overindulge needs to be approached by calling on the power of Jesus to help us overcom. Remember the promise in 1Corinthians 10:13. "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man, but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able but with the temptation will also make the way of escape that you may be able to bear it. Remember what Gwen says. You can hit the "reset button" just wait for hunger to come again. Hope this helps, Robert

Subject: Financing Kingdom Expansion From: GR8GOD4U@aol.com To: Everyone Date Posted: Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 18:10:32 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Thanks for your assistance in this matter. Roger L. Wever, Administrator

Subject: Re: Financing Kingdom Expansion From: Given O. Blakely To: GR8GOD4U@aol.com Date Posted: Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 14:01:36 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I would caution you to be careful in the matter of raising capital funds. There are a number of charlatans in this area that can greatly handicap any work you are trying to do. The call of God is generally accompanied with wisdom and means to fulfill that call. I do not mean to discourage you, for your intentions are noble. Planting a new church, however, must not be viewed through the eyes of professional "church planters" (so-called). Given O. Blakely

Subject: Over eating From: Patti To: Everyone Date Posted: Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 10:42:25 (EST) Email Address: NA Message:

Subject: Re: Over eating From: Robert Twart To: Patti Date Posted: Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 05:28:04 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Is over eating a sin? Are there Bible verses to back it up? Thank you in advance.Patti. There is a christian program called "The Weigh Down Workshop" that deals with this very issue. The big picture is that overeating can be an emotional response for us. That is, a lot of times, when we feel empty inside, we try to use food to comfort us instead of God. Check out this website and you'll be glad you did. www.wdworkshop.com Please post back and tell me what you think. Chances are that your church or one near you is sponsoring a Weigh Down Workshop now!!

Subject: Re: Over eating From: Given O. Blakely To: Patti Date Posted: Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 13:56:22 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Over eating is largely a matter of interpretation. Neither the term nor the concept are found in Scripture. For the anorexic, overeating means having more than a bread stick for lunch. In a famine stricken area, overeating would be depleting the food source, even though you were not "full." For some people, it can mean eating so much they feel miserable. But these are not matters addressed in scripture. The Word of God does speak of gluttony (Deut 21:20; Prov 23:21. Some charged Jesus Himself with being "gluttonous" (Matt 11:19; Lk 7:34). "Gluttony," however, and "over eating" are not synonymous terms The ancient Romans, as well as other civilizations, practices gluttony. Such people made a god, as it were, out of food. They would eat until filled, force regurgitation, and eat again. The modern practice of bolemia (sp) is a parallel to gluttony. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Stiff From: Marc LeBlanc To: Everyone Date Posted: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 12:35:07 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hi, I get the impression many church people I meet are stiff, cold. Makes me uncomfortable. I wonder if it is me who is the trouble maker or not. How can I tell? Marc <"}}}><

Subject: Re: Stiff From: Bud To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 15:11:21 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Hi, I get the impression many church people I meet are stiff, cold. Makes me uncomfortable. I wonder if it is me who is the trouble maker or not. How can I tell? Marc <'}}}>< Marc, I will be blunt. Many (but not all) church-goers ARE stiff and cold. I cannot say why, except to say that it is obviously NOT their desire to follow the will of God. What happens many times is that they walk in church asking, "What's in it for me?" So why do they come to church? I don't know. Maybe they like the superficial sense of importance they get from having their own "designated pew." I'm being cynical, but not without warrant. My advice to you (and to myself) is that we must desire to follow God's will ONLY. It's OK to be a "troublemaker" sometimes if it means not catering to nonsense. Jesus was certainly a "troublemaker" when he cleared out the temple. But remember, we must seek the will of God! If these cold followers of churchianity had this desire to seek and follow God's will, they would no longer be cold churchgoers! They would be Christians, in the true sense of the word. If we are following God's will, we should feel a little uncomfortable around "Christians" who are not. Next time you feel uncomfortable around church people, pray to God and ask him, "Am I doing your will? If not, help me to do so." God will hear you, and God will answer you. Following The Way, Bud

Subject: Re: Stiff From: Given O. Blakely To: Marc LeBlanc Date Posted: Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 14:08:42 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Being "stiff" is largely a matter of perspective. If your conduct makes it apparent that you are a disciple of Jesus, and those in the congregation are indifferent to you, I suppose you might call them "stiff." When Saul of Tarsus attempted to "join" himself to real disciples, they were reluctant to receive him because of his past reputation (Acts 9:26). Barnabas, however, took his side, and diffused the suspicions of the disciples. Those disciples, however, were not "stiff." The real issue in scripture is not how professed believers treat you, but how you treat them. Solomon once said, "A man who has friends must himself be friendly" (Prov 18:24). You may be dealing with people who have passed through a great crisis, or are being sorely tried. Such people may appear "stiff." Put the pressure for being friendly and loving on yourself, not on others. It will be helpful in maintaining a god spirit and personal reliance on the Lord. it will also modify your view of others. In Jesus, Brother Given

Subject: Re: Re: Stiff From: Marc LeBlanc To: Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 11:10:35 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Good morning, > Put the pressure for being friendly and loving on > yourself, not on others. This good advice made me blush. I needed to be reminded of this. Thanks! :-) marc

Subject: The gospel From: robert tewart To: everyone Date Posted: Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 00:31:40 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I wonder why the Lord didn't just put it all in one book in one chapter. Anyone care to comment?

Subject: Re: The gospel From: Marc LeBlanc To: robert tewart Date Posted: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 13:30:20 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Why is it that the message of the gospel is not found all in one place. That is, in order to share the gospel with another person, it is necesarry to go to several different verses in different books. Such as Romans 3:23 All have sinned.... and Romans 6:23 The wages of sin.... and John 3:3 You must be born again... I wonder why the Lord didn't just put it all in one book in one chapter. Anyone care to comment? Hi Robert, How are you? Forgive me. I'd like to help you but I don't always type the words that can express that fully. I was read a few verses before I believed, then I was read more, and then I read some for myself. Can we make a recipee of the word of God? I'd rather trust God that He will guide me always. God says that all scripture is good for teaching. I hope this helps... Marc LeBlanc

Subject: Re: The gospel From: Bud To: robert tewart Date Posted: Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 14:57:25 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Why is it that the message of the gospel is not found all in one place. That is, in order to share the gospel with another person, it is necesarry to go to several different verses in different books. Such as Romans 3:23 All have sinned.... and Romans 6:23 The wages of sin.... and John 3:3 You must be born again... I wonder why the Lord didn't just put it all in one book in one chapter. Anyone care to comment? Robert, God simply did not arrange the 66 works we call the Bible in "topical" order. Each book was written by a specific person (inspired by God), at a specific time and place in history, to and for certain persons or groups of people, and for a specific purpose. Now that we have the completed canon of Scripture, we have the privilege of examining the whole work to find the complete plan of salvation. So, in a manner of speaking, the gospel story IS found in just one place - the complete word of God. From Genesis to Revelation, we see God working in history, and we see God's salvation plan unfolding from first to last. Peace Brother, Bud Uzoras

Subject: Re: Re: The gospel From: Robert Tewart To: Bud Date Posted: Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 14:22:51 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Why is it that the message of the gospel is not found all in one place. That is, in order to share the gospel with another person, it is necesarry to go to several different verses in different books. Such as Romans 3:23 All have sinned.... and Romans 6:23 The wages of sin.... and John 3:3 You must be born again... I wonder why the Lord didn't just put it all in one book in one chapter. Anyone care to comment? Robert, God simply did not arrange the 66 works we call the Bible in 'topical' order. Each book was written by a specific person (inspired by God), at a specific time and place in history, to and for certain persons or groups of people, and for a specific purpose. Now that we have the completed canon of Scripture, we have the privilege of examining the whole work to find the complete plan of salvation. So, in a manner of speaking, the gospel story IS found in just one place - the complete word of God. From Genesis to Revelation, we see God working in history, and we see God's salvation plan unfolding from first to last. Peace Brother, Bud Uzoras I see your point, Bud and I agree. However, It just seems that many of the arguments that non-believers make are based on what they call someone's "interpretation". The subject of works versus faith is one. Another is baptism. I certainly don't question the organization that the Lord Himself chose but am just looking for some imput from others. Thanks and God bless, Robert

Subject: Son & Daughter From: BB To: Everyone Date Posted: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 22:13:49 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: AA meetings and working 2 jobs now. He has been dry for almost 3 months now. My daughter has been promoted at work and loves her job and has started slowly dating though hasn't met her soulmate she would have God pick yet. Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. Please continue to pray for them. God Bless, BB

Subject: Predestination: From the Pit From: Vic Eagle To: Everyone Date Posted: Tues, Feb 02, 1999 at 19:38:50 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: http://www.pro-gospel.org (I have repeatedly tried posting my following article, "Predestination: A Doctrine from the Pit" to the Apologetics board at PTG over the past couple of days and it was repeatedly deleted without any explanation whatsoever. I have posted my article to several other message boards (including CARM) without any such problem of deletion. In addition, false and slanderous accusations were made against me on the Theology board at PTG, in effect condemning me, and I was not given a chance to defend myself. Luke 6:37, "And do not judge and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned." (NASB) - Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, Vic Eagle 2/2/99) Predestination: A Doctrine from the Pit If God knew that all men could not be saved, the following New Testament statements would be nonsensical (all quotes from NASB): 1 Timothy 2:3, "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slow about His promises, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." God means what He says. He is not "double-minded," a sinful condition of some men (James 1:8). Many passages that are purported to support predestination, including Romans 8:28-29, Ephesians 1:1-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and 1 Peter 1:1-2, only speak about a body of believers who had been chosen to enter God's plan. The *plan* was established before the foundation of the world, not their individual salvations. God foreknew that there would be a body of believers in Christ, but not exactly who they would all be. Everyone has the ability to join or not (John 3:16). "For" in Romans 8:29 can also be translated "because," as in the John Darby translation. The verbs in verses 29-30 are written in the Greek aorist tense and therefore can be translated into English in the present tense instead of the past tense. Thus, verses 29-30 just further explain verse 28, about how God works things out for those who love Him. In Acts 13:48, the Greek word _tasso_, translated "appointed," (NASB) can also be translated "devoted," as is in: 1 Corinthians 16:15, "Now I urge you, brethren (you know the household of Stephanas, that they were the first fruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves for ministry to the saints)," The voice and verbal construction in Acts 13:48 are the same as in Matthew 9:36 (see KJV w/Strongs definitions at www.thechristian.org). Acts 13:48 says that those who were devoted to the *idea* of eternal life believed, in contrast to some Jews mentioned in Acts 13:46 who did not consider themselves worthy of eternal life. Ephesians 1:1-5 doesn't say that God chose us in him, it says we're blessed in him just as He chose beforehand for those in him to be blessed, and that we should be holy and blameless (verse 4). Verse 11 says that God intended for those in Christ to fulfil His purpose. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that Paul thanked God for the Thessalonians, who God chose because of their belief into His plan, a plan which He established from the beginning. 1 Peter 1:1-2 says that they were chosen according to God's foreknowledge that some, not exactly who, would be chosen. Jesus Christ was the only one clearly foreknown before the foundation of the world: 1 Peter 1:20-21, "For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." And consider that the Apostle Paul was set apart from his mother's womb, not before the foundation of the world: Galatians 1:15-16, "But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood," What can be said of the belief that God did not predestine anyone to heaven or hell, yet He knows everyone's ultimate destiny from the foundation of the world? At first glance, God may indeed appear to be omniscient: John 21:17, "He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep."" Jesus, however, clearly did not know all things. Matthew 24:36, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." The word "all" often has a general sense and is not literally true: Matthew 10:22, "And you will be hated by all on account of My name..." Does "all" include fellow disciples and other Christians? No. Matthew 13:46, "...and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it." Does "all" include every last piece of his clothing? I doubt it. Matthew 19:20, "The young man said to Him, 'All these things I have kept, what am I still lacking?'" Did this man never sin? Romans 3:23, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Matthew 19:26, "And looking upon them Jesus said to them, 'With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'" Is it possible for God to sin? No. Many other verses show that God is not omniscient, including several in Exodus 4. God repeatedly commanded Moses to speak (Exodus 4:12), but Moses was intransigent, so God finally selected Aaron to speak *instead* (_tachath_ in Hebrew, Strong's no.=8478, Exodus 4:16). If God were omniscient, these commands would have been in vain. God's conditional statements in Genesis 18:20-33, Exodus 4:8-10, 8:2,21, 10:4, 15:26, Leviticus 26, etc., presume that He is not omniscient. Other verses showing He is not omniscient: Isaiah 5:4, "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?" Isaiah 43:25 "I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake; And I will not remember your sins." Hebrews 8:12, "For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And I will remember their sins no more." Since God was not omniscient about so many things, He could not even have known all who would be born much less our eternal destinies. God gave us the free will to accept or reject Christ. If we accept him in obedience, we receive eternal life. In Jesus, Vic

Subject: Re: Predestination: From the Pit From: Given O. Blakely To: Vic Eagle Date Posted: Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:10:27 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Brother Vic, I am constrained to answer your posting. While I have a deep respect for you personally, you have not spoken discreetly in your writing. God is deserving of honor and glory, neither of which is evident in your article. I am leaving it on my message board, and therefore must comment upon it. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- "Since God was not omniscient about so many things, He could not even have known all who would be born much less our eternal destinies." I am in full sympathy with your effort to show salvation is for all men, but you have gone too far in the statement quoted above. Hebews 4:13 and 1 John 3:20 are in sharp conflict with your statement. His understanding is categorically affirmed to be "infinite" (Psa 147:5). You have suggested it is finite. You study in semantics on the word "all" certainly does reflect the mind of the Spirit. You need to become more familiar with the Divine manner of speaking. The word "all" is frequently used to segregate one class from another--i.e., believers are one class, the other is "all others." I exhort you to be cautious about how you handle the Word of God. God is going to be "justified in all of His sayings," overcoming every person who contradicts or disputes His declarations (Rom 3:4). --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Your following statement reflects a juvenileness that is inexcusable. "Many other verses show that God is not omniscient, including several in Exodus 4. God repeatedly commanded Moses to speak (Exodus 4:12), but Moses was intransigent, so God finally selected Aaron to speak *instead* (_tachath_ in Hebrew, Strong's no.=8478, Exodus 4:16). If God were omniscient, these commands would have been in vain." Stephen, who certainly was qualified to speak about Moses, was of a different persuasion than yourself. Of Moses, he said, "So Moses was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in his words and deeds" (Acts 7:22). Moses' statement concerning his lack of eloquence was not a casual assessment of his abilities, nor was it a technical view of his speaking ability. He said it in view of the gravity of the mission to which he was called. His point was that he did not his trust in his abilities. There certainly was no lack of eloquence when he pled for Israel (Ex 32:11-13). Nor, indeed, was his valedictory speech powerless and clumsy (Deut 33). No one who heard Moses speak said that he fumbled about for words. His response was much like that of Paul, who said he was "crude" or untrained in speech (2 Cor 11:6). Those who heard Paul, however, did not think this was the case. The cities of Lycaonia, upon hearing Paul, thought they had be visited by the gods. They called Paul "Hermes, because he was the chief speaker" (Acts 14:11-12). --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- I also object to your following judgment. "Jesus, however, clearly did not know all things. Matthew 24:36, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." The word "all" often has a general sense and is not literally true." In coming into the world, Jesus laid aside Divine prerogative, humbling Himself. He did not count equality with God something to be held on to, but let it go in order to redeem us (Phil 2:5-8). The condition of not knowing the day of His return was not one inherent to His nature, but one which He voluntarily embraced. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- I could say much more about your post, but this will suffice. It is not on the part of wisdom to take it upon yourself to judge God and Christ, or to assess their nature. Remember, they are going to assess you. You will bow your knee to Christ, and your tongue will confess that Christ is Lord to the glory of God. I respectfully suggest that when that day arrives, you will deeply regret having such statements about God and Christ, affirming they are not omniscient -- then resorting a surface and unsound linguistic approach to justify your view. It is far better to fear God and give Him glory, than to critique Him and present Him as flawed and unlearned as yourself. In Jesus, Brother Given

Subject: Re: Predestination: From the Pit From: Bud Uzoras To: Vic Eagle and Given O. Blakely Date Posted: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 11:22:07 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Vic Eagle, One thing I find interesting is that I haven't found the word "omniscient" in any of my translations of Scripture. Perhaps I need a Latin version. People may say, "God is omniscient," but they are NOT saying the same thing, because people have different ideas of what "omniscient" means. Perhaps we would convey meaning much better if we discarded all those "omni" words. People have a hard enough time communicating in English. I don't want to muddy the waters more by throwing in my pseudo-scholarly vocabulary. What does God know? God knows everything. I know this is vague, so I will refer to the writings of Dr. Gregory Boyd, because he said it in his book much better than I can write it here. Dr. Boyd writes (to his skeptic father, by the way), "Your question in you last letter about God's foreknowledge is a good one, but I think it's based on a misconception of what God's omniscience (His knowing everything) entails. In the Christian view God knows all of reality -- everything there is to know. But to assume He knows ahead of time how every person is going to freely act assumes that each person's free activity is already there to know -- even before he freely does it! But it's not. If we have been given freedom, we create the reality of our decisions by making them. And until we make them, they don't exist. Thus, in my view at least, there simply isn't anything to know until we make it there to know. So God can't foreknow the good or bad decisions of the people He creates until He creates these people and they, in turn, create their decisions. Now I should tell you that this isn't the traditional Christian position. The traditional Christian understanding is that God does foreknow the free actions of everybody. But even here it is held that God foreknows them only because these people are, in fact, going to do them. God's knowledge is based on the people's (future) action, not vice versa. So it would be impossible for God to refrain from creating these people on the basis of their (yet future) action. Their future action wouldn't be there unless God did create them! I personally think this last position is philosophically untenable." (From "Letters From A Skeptic" by Dr. Gregory Boyd) Certainly, God is "omniscient." God knows everything there is to know. Just as since God is omnipotent (we discussed this in this forum before - see "A Fun Little Question"), God can do anything that is possible to do, so since God is omniscient, he knows everything that is possible to know. Does this take away from God supreme nature? Of course not. God has no equal. God has no flaw. God has no weakness. I agree with Brother Given that we, in discussing God's nature, must give glory to him in our speech. I do not see any glory to God in your article, Vic. This is not judgment, this is accountability. I pray that God may be glorified in your life. Peace brother. Following The Way, Bud

Subject: Fides et Ratio From: Bud Uzoras To: Everyone Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 28, 1999 at 15:46:21 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Following The Way, Bud

Subject: Re: Fides et Ratio From: Robert Tewart To: Bud Uzoras Date Posted: Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 00:49:33 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Bud, I have no degree in philosophy and the extent of my latin is "carpe dormi" which roughly translated means " I seized some sleep" :) Seriously though, To me, faith basically means believing what someone else tells you. If I was walking out of my house and my wife said "take a jacket, It's cold" I would take it on faith that it was cold. The bible however is different because the more I read, the more faith I have. I find that I cannot continually read the Word of God and not gain faith. There are so many verses that I read and then think, "wow, that really hits home".

Subject: Re: Fides et Ratio From: Roger L. Wever To: Bud Uzoras Date Posted: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 11:01:13 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Did you know the Pope has two doctorates in Philosophy? I'm not Catholic, but it makes me think seriously about how faith and reason relate. Of course, before I ask about how these two things relate, I always ask, 'What is faith?' I bring this to you all because I could not believe the different answers I received. I'm curious to hear what you have to say. Following The Way, Bud No, didn't know about the Pope's trivia. You ask, What is faith? I would direct you right to the Scriptures. They provide a much better answer than what "this body of death" could give to you.

Subject: Re: Fides et Ratio From: Eric Cohoon To: Bud Uzoras Date Posted: Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 16:14:58 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Did you know the Pope has two doctorates in Philosophy? I'm not Catholic, but it makes me think seriously about how faith and reason relate. Of course, before I ask about how these two things relate, I always ask, 'What is faith?' I bring this to you all because I could not believe the different answers I received. I'm curious to hear what you have to say. Following The Way, Bud When I talk about faith I usually talk about the "faith word". This is due to the breadth of the meaning of the faith word. What I am more and more struck by is the trust aspect of the word. Do I trust my Lord? Yes, but Lord help my lack of trust. Take a look at John 8:30. It says that many of the Jews believed in him (the faith word). Read on very carefully. I think you will find it was these very people that were about to stone him at the end of the chapter. He made an incomprehensible comment to them and they didn't trust him as the disciples did and say, "Lord I don't understand you, what do you mean." Do I trust him enough to take him at his word even though I may not understand? When I do I truly faith Him. In His Grace, Eric :-)>

Subject: I'm back From: Robert Tewart To: Everyone Date Posted: Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 12:23:04 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Robert

Subject: Re: I'm back From: Roger L. Wever To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 23:46:36 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: My computer crashed awhile back and we had to do everything short of jumping on top of it and giving it CPR!! Anyway, I've missed this site the most and am looking forward to as brother Wever says 'opening cans of worms' . God bless. Robert Open away, I think. ROFL

Subject: Life From: JCC To: Everyone Date Posted: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 18:12:29 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I know there is a Good and Loving God

Subject: Re: Life From: Given O. Blakely To: JCC Date Posted: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 01:23:00 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: None of us can mend a broken heart. God sent Jesus, however, to do precisely that. Of His ministry Jesus said, "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED . . . " (Luke 4:18). This is something He does personally and effectively. Ask Him to do it for you -- that is one of the ministries he loves to fulfill. Given O. Blakely

Subject: Re: Life From: Roger L. Wever To: JCC Date Posted: Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 23:49:26 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: How do you mend a broken heart. Please pray for my Lynn and Chelsea. Please also Pray for my son, Christopher and Rachel my daughter. Pray that our love remain vibrant, alive and faithful. I know there is a Good and Loving God FORGIVENESS is the best way to start the mending of broken hearts. Prayer for you: DONE - It is finished.

Subject: Sleeping Love From: JC To: Everyone Date Posted: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 18:07:22 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Since my break up with the woman I love, my life has gone down hill. How can God (LOVE) place such a good woman in my life, just to take her away? Please do pray for me, because deep down inside I know there is a loving caring good. ANd then these three are left; Hope, Faith and Love. And the Greatest of these is Love. 1 Cor. 13:13

Subject: Re: Sleeping Love From: Annonymous To: JC Date Posted: Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 23:58:41 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Jehovah is the God of all comfort. Wanting is a good place to be in. God hears & listens. One's feelings does not determine the facts concerning His attention to us. "Be angry and avoid sin." "God gives and takes away." He has the big picture and we often are without it but when we grasp it some Romans 8:28 is realized abundantly. A prayer on your behalf has ascended on this end.

Subject: Re: Sleeping Love From: j316@ctc.net To: JC Date Posted: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 10:58:36 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: JC, God loves you and knows what you are going through. He said to cast all our care upon him because he cares for us. He wants you to seek him more and he'll give you the desires of your heart. Who do you love more? God has a reason for everything and all things work together for the good to those that love the Lord and are called according to his purpose.(IPeter 5-7)God Bless you and I will put you on my prayer list. Believe God is going to move for you! Mary

Subject: Re: Sleeping Love From: j316@ctc.net To: JC Date Posted: Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 11:00:58 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: JC, God loves you and knows what you are going through. He said to cast all our care upon him because he cares for us. He wants you to seek him more and he'll give you the desires of your heart. Who do you love more? God has a reason for everything and all things work together for the good to those that love the Lord and are called according to his purpose.(IPeter 5-7)God Bless you and I will put you on my prayer list. Believe God is going to move for you! Mary

Subject: Michael Card: Share a Review From: Roger L. Wever To: Everyone Date Posted: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 00:55:19 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: http://www.christianchurches.org/tnb I am not familar with this contemporary Christian music artist. Please share a review of him as an artist and specific compositions he has developed if you are familar with him. I am also particularly interested in comments regarding his recent release of "The Basin and the Towel."

Subject: Insects with four legs? From: Bill T. To: Everyone Date Posted: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 00:12:18 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: In Jesus, Bill T.

Subject: Re: Insects with four legs? From: Given O. Blakely To: Bill T. Date Posted: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 13:01:23 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: The answer is found in the phrase "All fowls THAT CREEP" (KJV). Other versions read, "flying insects," or "winged insects." This section of Leviticus views "fowls" as anything that flies. It also mentions "the bat" (verse 19), which does fly, but is not classified, as a "bird." The text is not saying that ALL insects have four legs, but speaks of a CATEGORY of insects that fly and have four legs. Verses 21-22 specify the only creatures from this category that could be eaten under the Law--locusts, beetles, and grasshoppers. Later, other creeping things that go upon their belly are mentioned, which were also forbidden. In that section, three classes of "creeping things" are mentioned: "Whatever crawls on its belly, whatever goes on all fours, or whatever has many feet among all creeping things that creep on the earth" (Verse 42). Your question concerned only the second category. Given O. Blakely

Subject: A good book on the Good Book? From: Bud Uzoras To: Everyone Date Posted: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 22:08:38 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: I'm looking for a book that deals in-depth with the issue of alleged "contradictions" in the Bible, as well as something that answers the criticism that the Bible has been "edited" over the years by the church. I was wondering if one or more of you could offer any suggested reading. =) Thanks, Following The Way, Bud

Subject: Re: A good book on the Good Book? From: Bud To: Bud Uzoras Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 28, 1999 at 15:49:26 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: In my searching, I have found a few good authors who deal with this subject. Norman Geisler and R.C. Sproul in particular. Just thought I'd let any of you who care know. Peace, Bud

Subject: Re: Re: A good book on the Good Book? From: John Holmes To: Bud Date Posted: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 23:09:32 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: BUD, THE BIBLE IS FULL OF MISTAKES AND CONTRADICTIONS. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THE BIBLE HAS BEEN REVISED AND EDITED SO MUCH OVER THE CENTURIES. I USED TO BE A CHRISTIAN, BUT NOW I FIND I CANNOT TRUST IN SUCH A BOOK. WHY DO YOU? JOHN

Subject: servants of Jesus needed From: Beth To: Everyone Date Posted: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 12:57:46 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Let me know what you think. We need other Christians with compassion to correspond with an inmate who wants a pen pal friend on the outside. To find out more contact me. God bless you!!

Subject: Denial Of Truth&Integrity From: Judith Natale To: Everyone Date Posted: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 10:47:23 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Date: 12/16/98 11:22:59 AM EST From: MAA JUDITH To: president@whitehouse.gov Double-click picture(s) to display in picture editor --- --- --- --- --- -- Forwarded Message: Subj: *IN DENIAL OF TRUTH....... Date: 12/14/98 11:25:31 AM EST From: MAA JUDITH To: president@whitehouse.gov [][][] Subj: America & President In Denial Of Truth... Date: 12/14/98 0:01:24 AM EST From: MAA JUDITH To: president@whitehouse.gov CC: Judiciary@mail.house.gov LAW & ORDER........TRUTH & HONESTY.....HONOR & INTEGRITY... These are the values that our forefathers lived and died for.....Should we do any less then they?.....What part of a lie do people not understand?.... A lie is a lie... is a lie.... is a lie....very simple....and....the law is the law....is the law...is the law. They say that justice is blind and shows no partiality according to the law of the land....the only people who think that they are above the law are rulers, dictators, kings and rebels.....the common folk live according to the value of the law. America is in a period of denial.....the president is in denial.....This is a very sad day in our nation....We all have a hard time admitting the truth about our president.... He wagged his finger at us on national TV and then he lied.... We tried to believe him and even trust him.... Now we are all in denial because the truth is out and it is just too painful to admit.... We are ashamed of his lies and his behavior.... This is a sad day but we have to face up to the truth and stop being angry at ourselves for wanting to trust him.... He has disappointed us all.... This is a sad day in America...... Our nation weeps as we try to learn how to deal with the truth... The pain is real.... And the truth hurts... America is in denial.....How could the president be such a fool?.......How can we go on admiring a man who now makes us fight with each other.... We try to hide our true feelings of betrayal....Even abused children will fight to defend the one who is the real abuser....the one who took advantage of them physically/mentally/sexually ........Well.....Now it is time to take a stand... Mr. President we will walk in fear no more.... We will pick ourselves up ......Wipe off the dust.....The lies.....Then take a stand for our future...and for our children who have sadly lost a hero.... The President Of The United States Of America...... So.....If it is against the law to mix church and state.....Then it should be against the law for the president to mix his personal life outside of his marriage with his political life which is paid for by the American people..... If we have to obey the law..... Then so should he...... Sex in the oval office with an employee and lying under oath are defying the legal process in order to fit his own personal needs... This is not ethical or moral...Not even legal.(Unless you're the president). LAW & ORDER... Do we want our nation.... Our children...Our grandchildren ....to follow the president's behavior patterns?..... Is this what we want for our future as a nation?.... It is also very very sad that the so-called popular vote agrees with our president in his disgraceful behavior.... I am shocked that more people in this country are not outraged by his personal conduct ... This is a very sad day in our nation that we can excuse someone to be above the law because of a group of people who call themselves the popular vote ... (The Silent Majority had better speak up soon and take a stand or this country is going to continue on a spiral downpath to distruction ..... My heart breaks for our president .....But I love my country ..... And our children ..... And I believe in the structure of the law and what is the right thing to do ..... Why? .... Because it is morally right ..... Not because it is popular .... Mr. President.... May God have mercy on us all ..... My heart breaks to see what your actions have done to this country ..... We are tearing each other apart ..... On one hand is righteousness and honor ..... On the other hand is lawlessness and dishonor ..... We cannot be a nation of liars and bigots ..... America is falling apart..... And Mr. President ..... You are not part of the solution ..... You are part of the problem and there is no way that you can buy your way out of this one with our hard earned money ...... Our inheritance belongs to our children ..... Not to you or to some foreign country ..... It is our money ...... Not yours. Well..... At least we are all talking and arguing about the real problems that are facing our nation ..... In a business or corporation the real problems begin at the top ..... And so all real changes have got to begin at the top ..... Sir ..... That's you ..... You are the top and it must start with you! ......Your actions must be held to the law of righteousness in order for our children and grandchildren to see what a leader is designed to do ..... LEAD WITH HONOR ...... Sir ......You have lost this opportunity ..... Why? ..... Because you have proven yourself dishonorable ..... Otherwise you would have done the honorable thing and resigned ..... You could have saved this nation from the destructive behavior that it is partaking in now ..... Sir ...... Only the weaker minority have stood by you ..... The Silent Majority have not yet spoken or took a stand yet ..... I pray that the dear Lord will quicken their hearts and spirit to take a stand for what is the right thing to do .... Not the popular thing to do wrong ...... Sir ..... You are setting a very poor example for our children and all the world ..... You have no morals ..... You have lied to us ..... And it breaks my heart to admit the truth about this negative side of your personality ..... But only immoral people are on your side ..... Not the godly or righteous ..... The Silent Majority are just about at the point of action because what you are doing is not only against the laws of our nation ..... BUT AGAINST GOD ALMIGHTY ..... The dictionary describes a LIE as: ..... A FALSE STATEMENT MADE WITH DELIBERATE ATTEMPT TO DECEIVE ..... A FALSEHOOD ..... Does this sound familiar? ..... Does this sound like our president of the United States Of America? ..... Then why is America in continual denial? ..... Why? Because we have been betrayed ..... A lie is also stated as a deliberate intent or serving to convey a false impression .... Imposturing ..... A flat contradiction ..... To speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly as with intent to deceive ..... In my opinion ...... The biggest lie is when someone lies to themself about the truth ..... This is called DENIAL .....!!!!! Please Mr. President ..... Resign gracefully in honor of those of us who admire you but are sicken by your behavior ..... We care about you ..... But what you have done by lying and playing games and trying to get around the truth is very childish .... Be a man .... Own up to the truth ..... Resign ..... Just look at all the people that you have exposed to your lies ..... They are now arguing amongst themselves because they are in denial of the truth .... But the truth shall set you and America free ....... Sir .....Women have a right to be protected from men who lie and emotionally abuse them ..... Please take a stand for righteousness ..... Women ..... Children ..... Grandchildren ..... Families ..... They all need help to learn how to be more faithful to their vows ...... Your example and the democratic solutions to faithfulness of the truth of the law and honor is disgraceful and very harmful ..... It is destructive to this nation who trusts in God ........ Sir ..... As founder and ceo of a committee to preserve our children and families in America I have to take a stand for righteousness ..... Not self righteousness ...... We can no longer stand along the sideline in shock and denial ..... Please ..... Forgive me ..... We are a group of concerned American citizens from across our nation who are formed as a committee that is non-partisan and we are not federally funded ..... Instead .... From our own hard earned money and our time do we volunteer ourselves and our finances to campaign for children and family awareness across America ..... We love our kids .... We love our country ..... GOD BLESS AMERICA ..... (IIChronicles 7:14 ....If My People) Finally ..... We want to thank all the fine American leaders on the Judiciary committee who are taking a stand for women and children ..... Our pain of physical/sexual/mental abuse is a cry that nobody wants to hear ..... We need to have leaders that we can look up to for setting a good example ..... To us ..... To our men ..... To our fathers ..... To our sons .... And our grandsons .... We thank you for not backing down on what is right ..... IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT ..... And then remove him from office ..... Why? ..... On the basis that he like any other American does not have the right to lie under oath and obstruct justice .... And that improper behavior with an employee is offensive ..... And that there are real consequences for that kind of behavior ..... We do not need leaders who are LIARS ..... PERVERTS ...... OR .... ABUSERS OF POWER ..... Or .... Psychological abusers of women and children by acting as if it is okay and acceptable for of behavior to break the law .... It is not! ..... And what the president did in the oval office and with all the other women he has offended and his lies to the country, and all the deception and fraudulent behavior are just not acceptable form of behavior for the president of the United States Of America. .... And since the president will not do the honorable thing and resign gracefully .... then he needs to be removed from the high office of president ...... Otherwise .... Release all the prisoners in jails and pardon them for the same kind of wrongs. If the president wants to then continue on his self-destructive conduct he can do so if he chooses on his own time ..... but not as president ..... not with our money ...... We do not want to look at this any longer .... And we all want to put this disgrace behind us ..... Women and children do not need men like this in our lives any more ..... And we all need leaders who say that it is not right to lie .... Nor to cheat on each other ..... Nor to exploit employees ..... Or disgrace their office ..... Their country ..... Their family ..... Their children ..... Nor to offend and abstruct justice by disobeying the court of law and order which we all need to live by in order to form a more perfect union ..... Please ..... Stop the physical/ sexual/ and mental abuse of women and children by men like the president who look nice on the outside .... But ..... On the inside they are wolves in sheeps clothing ...... They are ugly and they are abusive ..... Just ask any women or child who has suffered from a man who has them to become paralyzed with fear and too frightened to act .... to defend themselves .... to take a stand ..... to fight back ..... PLEASE .....TAKE A STAND FOR THEM ..... Why? ..... Because they have become co-dependent on the wrong kind of men ..... A man like the president ..... America needs leaders who can exemplify in their lives and actions the righteousness of good people with good hearts who can lead with dignity, honor, integrity, and honesty ...... What we need are a few good men and women who can take a stand ...... We need your help ..... Thank you America for listening ..... We pray that you have the courage to do the right thing for all Americans ..... Even those in our prisons ..... They need help too ..... They need help to become more productive Americans and learn the discipline of good conduct before they are released back into society and to their families ..... JUSTICE FOR ALL .... We owe this to our children and grandchildren who are the future leaders of all our tomorrows ..... Help them to take a stand for what is right .... for courage .... for honesty ... and help them to learn how to love themselves and others .... Their families ..... And their country ..... We will continue to pray for all our leaders ..... GOD BLESS AMERICA .................... maajudith@aol.com ..................... (Judith Natale-RR6-Box531-Muncy-PA-17756 -CentralPA/NorthernCA)... []

Subject: Re: Denial Of Truth&Integrity From: Frankie Seybert To: Judith Natale Date Posted: Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 16:16:02 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Subj: ToughLove-VS-WagThePeople..... Date: 12/16/98 11:22:59 AM EST From: MAA JUDITH To: president@whitehouse.gov Double-click picture(s) to display in picture editor --- --- --- --- --- -- Forwarded Message: Subj: *IN DENIAL OF TRUTH....... Date: 12/14/98 11:25:31 AM EST From: MAA JUDITH To: president@whitehouse.gov [][][] Subj: America & President In Denial Of Truth... Date: 12/14/98 0:01:24 AM EST From: MAA JUDITH To: president@whitehouse.gov CC: Judiciary@mail.house.gov LAW & ORDER........TRUTH & HONESTY.....HONOR & INTEGRITY... These are the values that our forefathers lived and died for.....Should we do any less then they?.....What part of a lie do people not understand?.... A lie is a lie... is a lie.... is a lie....very simple....and....the law is the law....is the law...is the law. They say that justice is blind and shows no partiality according to the law of the land....the only people who think that they are above the law are rulers, dictators, kings and rebels.....the common folk live according to the value of the law. America is in a period of denial.....the president is in denial.....This is a very sad day in our nation....We all have a hard time admitting the truth about our president.... He wagged his finger at us on national TV and then he lied.... We tried to believe him and even trust him.... Now we are all in denial because the truth is out and it is just too painful to admit.... We are ashamed of his lies and his behavior.... This is a sad day but we have to face up to the truth and stop being angry at ourselves for wanting to trust him.... He has disappointed us all.... This is a sad day in America...... Our nation weeps as we try to learn how to deal with the truth... The pain is real.... And the truth hurts... America is in denial.....How could the president be such a fool?.......How can we go on admiring a man who now makes us fight with each other.... We try to hide our true feelings of betrayal....Even abused children will fight to defend the one who is the real abuser....the one who took advantage of them physically/mentally/sexually ........Well.....Now it is time to take a stand... Mr. President we will walk in fear no more.... We will pick ourselves up ......Wipe off the dust.....The lies.....Then take a stand for our future...and for our children who have sadly lost a hero.... The President Of The United States Of America...... So.....If it is against the law to mix church and state.....Then it should be against the law for the president to mix his personal life outside of his marriage with his political life which is paid for by the American people..... If we have to obey the law..... Then so should he...... Sex in the oval office with an employee and lying under oath are defying the legal process in order to fit his own personal needs... This is not ethical or moral...Not even legal.(Unless you're the president). LAW & ORDER... Do we want our nation.... Our children...Our grandchildren ....to follow the president's behavior patterns?..... Is this what we want for our future as a nation?.... It is also very very sad that the so-called popular vote agrees with our president in his disgraceful behavior.... I am shocked that more people in this country are not outraged by his personal conduct ... This is a very sad day in our nation that we can excuse someone to be above the law because of a group of people who call themselves the popular vote ... (The Silent Majority had better speak up soon and take a stand or this country is going to continue on a spiral downpath to distruction ..... My heart breaks for our president .....But I love my country ..... And our children ..... And I believe in the structure of the law and what is the right thing to do ..... Why? .... Because it is morally right ..... Not because it is popular .... Mr. President.... May God have mercy on us all ..... My heart breaks to see what your actions have done to this country ..... We are tearing each other apart ..... On one hand is righteousness and honor ..... On the other hand is lawlessness and dishonor ..... We cannot be a nation of liars and bigots ..... America is falling apart..... And Mr. President ..... You are not part of the solution ..... You are part of the problem and there is no way that you can buy your way out of this one with our hard earned money ...... Our inheritance belongs to our children ..... Not to you or to some foreign country ..... It is our money ...... Not yours. Well..... At least we are all talking and arguing about the real problems that are facing our nation ..... In a business or corporation the real problems begin at the top ..... And so all real changes have got to begin at the top ..... Sir ..... That's you ..... You are the top and it must start with you! ......Your actions must be held to the law of righteousness in order for our children and grandchildren to see what a leader is designed to do ..... LEAD WITH HONOR ...... Sir ......You have lost this opportunity ..... Why? ..... Because you have proven yourself dishonorable ..... Otherwise you would have done the honorable thing and resigned ..... You could have saved this nation from the destructive behavior that it is partaking in now ..... Sir ...... Only the weaker minority have stood by you ..... The Silent Majority have not yet spoken or took a stand yet ..... I pray that the dear Lord will quicken their hearts and spirit to take a stand for what is the right thing to do .... Not the popular thing to do wrong ...... Sir ..... You are setting a very poor example for our children and all the world ..... You have no morals ..... You have lied to us ..... And it breaks my heart to admit the truth about this negative side of your personality ..... But only immoral people are on your side ..... Not the godly or righteous ..... The Silent Majority are just about at the point of action because what you are doing is not only against the laws of our nation ..... BUT AGAINST GOD ALMIGHTY ..... The dictionary describes a LIE as: ..... A FALSE STATEMENT MADE WITH DELIBERATE ATTEMPT TO DECEIVE ..... A FALSEHOOD ..... Does this sound familiar? ..... Does this sound like our president of the United States Of America? ..... Then why is America in continual denial? ..... Why? Because we have been betrayed ..... A lie is also stated as a deliberate intent or serving to convey a false impression .... Imposturing ..... A flat contradiction ..... To speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly as with intent to deceive ..... In my opinion ...... The biggest lie is when someone lies to themself about the truth ..... This is called DENIAL .....!!!!! Please Mr. President ..... Resign gracefully in honor of those of us who admire you but are sicken by your behavior ..... We care about you ..... But what you have done by lying and playing games and trying to get around the truth is very childish .... Be a man .... Own up to the truth ..... Resign ..... Just look at all the people that you have exposed to your lies ..... They are now arguing amongst themselves because they are in denial of the truth .... But the truth shall set you and America free ....... Sir .....Women have a right to be protected from men who lie and emotionally abuse them ..... Please take a stand for righteousness ..... Women ..... Children ..... Grandchildren ..... Families ..... They all need help to learn how to be more faithful to their vows ...... Your example and the democratic solutions to faithfulness of the truth of the law and honor is disgraceful and very harmful ..... It is destructive to this nation who trusts in God ........ Sir ..... As founder and ceo of a committee to preserve our children and families in America I have to take a stand for righteousness ..... Not self righteousness ...... We can no longer stand along the sideline in shock and denial ..... Please ..... Forgive me ..... We are a group of concerned American citizens from across our nation who are formed as a committee that is non-partisan and we are not federally funded ..... Instead .... From our own hard earned money and our time do we volunteer ourselves and our finances to campaign for children and family awareness across America ..... We love our kids .... We love our country ..... GOD BLESS AMERICA ..... (IIChronicles 7:14 ....If My People) Finally ..... We want to thank all the fine American leaders on the Judiciary committee who are taking a stand for women and children ..... Our pain of physical/sexual/mental abuse is a cry that nobody wants to hear ..... We need to have leaders that we can look up to for setting a good example ..... To us ..... To our men ..... To our fathers ..... To our sons .... And our grandsons .... We thank you for not backing down on what is right ..... IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT ..... And then remove him from office ..... Why? ..... On the basis that he like any other American does not have the right to lie under oath and obstruct justice .... And that improper behavior with an employee is offensive ..... And that there are real consequences for that kind of behavior ..... We do not need leaders who are LIARS ..... PERVERTS ...... OR .... ABUSERS OF POWER ..... Or .... Psychological abusers of women and children by acting as if it is okay and acceptable for of behavior to break the law .... It is not! ..... And what the president did in the oval office and with all the other women he has offended and his lies to the country, and all the deception and fraudulent behavior are just not acceptable form of behavior for the president of the United States Of America. .... And since the president will not do the honorable thing and resign gracefully .... then he needs to be removed from the high office of president ...... Otherwise .... Release all the prisoners in jails and pardon them for the same kind of wrongs. If the president wants to then continue on his self-destructive conduct he can do so if he chooses on his own time ..... but not as president ..... not with our money ...... We do not want to look at this any longer .... And we all want to put this disgrace behind us ..... Women and children do not need men like this in our lives any more ..... And we all need leaders who say that it is not right to lie .... Nor to cheat on each other ..... Nor to exploit employees ..... Or disgrace their office ..... Their country ..... Their family ..... Their children ..... Nor to offend and abstruct justice by disobeying the court of law and order which we all need to live by in order to form a more perfect union ..... Please ..... Stop the physical/ sexual/ and mental abuse of women and children by men like the president who look nice on the outside .... But ..... On the inside they are wolves in sheeps clothing ...... They are ugly and they are abusive ..... Just ask any women or child who has suffered from a man who has them to become paralyzed with fear and too frightened to act .... to defend themselves .... to take a stand ..... to fight back ..... PLEASE .....TAKE A STAND FOR THEM ..... Why? ..... Because they have become co-dependent on the wrong kind of men ..... A man like the president ..... America needs leaders who can exemplify in their lives and actions the righteousness of good people with good hearts who can lead with dignity, honor, integrity, and honesty ...... What we need are a few good men and women who can take a stand ...... We need your help ..... Thank you America for listening ..... We pray that you have the courage to do the right thing for all Americans ..... Even those in our prisons ..... They need help too ..... They need help to become more productive Americans and learn the discipline of good conduct before they are released back into society and to their families ..... JUSTICE FOR ALL .... We owe this to our children and grandchildren who are the future leaders of all our tomorrows ..... Help them to take a stand for what is right .... for courage .... for honesty ... and help them to learn how to love themselves and others .... Their families ..... And their country ..... We will continue to pray for all our leaders ..... GOD BLESS AMERICA .................... maajudith@aol.com ..................... (Judith Natale-RR6-Box531-Muncy-PA-17756 -CentralPA/NorthernCA)... [] Your message is God inspiried and God will bless you. We can't serve two masters. We must not deny our God of all rightiousness!!!

Subject: Everyone From: Robert Tewart To: Everyone Date Posted: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 01:25:46 (EST) Email Address: NA Message:

Subject: Re: Everyone From: Roger L. Wever To: Robert Tewart Date Posted: Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 11:33:54 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Dear friends, This is simply a holliday greeting to all of you who have remained faithful and who have written and commented here. Your insights and responses have provided a great source of learing and growth for me. May the Lord continue to bless you and inspire you to communicate to your brothers and sisters in Christ. Merry Christmas!! You are extremely welcome Robert. Yuletide blessings to you as well and have a grand new year. In His Life & Love, Roger

Subject: A fun little question From: Bud Uzoras To: Everyone Date Posted: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 11:15:22 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Following The Way, Bud

Subject: Re: A fun little question From: Barry To: Bud Uzoras Date Posted: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 16:20:25 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Bud, God can do anything He wants! In Christ, Barry

Subject: Re: Re: A fun little question From: Bud To: Barry Date Posted: Wed, Dec 23, 1998 at 16:45:12 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: Bud, God can do anything He wants! In Christ, Barry Barry, While I agree that God is the almighty sovereign Lord of all, this "fun little question" is used to allegedly "prove" that God is not almighty, and therefore cannot do anything he wants. But, it's nothing to fret over. I merely presented it for fun (You see, I consider a challenge to be fun). Peace brother, Following The Way, Bud

Subject: Re: A fun little question From: Given O. Blakely To: Bud Uzoras Date Posted: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 01:15:25 (EST) Email Address: NA Message: One of the inexorable traits of God is that He works only in accord with His purpose, and in strict harmony with His character. Creating a stone too heavy to be lifted by Himself is a philosophical question, and really has no relation to either Divine purpose of Divine character. Concerning things God cannot do, there are a number things impossible for God--and they are declared in His Word. 1. He cannot be tempted with evil (James 1:13). 2. He cannot be mocked (Gal 6:7). 3. He cannot lie (Tit 1:2). 4. He cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13). From the general point of view, "All things are possible with God" (Matt 19:26), and "with God nothing is impossible" (Lk 1:37). In Jesus, Brother Given

Subject: Re: The Early Church From: Roger L. Wever To: Diane The Seeker Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 22, 1998 at 00:42:51 (EDT) Email Address: NA Message: Does anybody out there know of any good books on Early Church History, especially the 8 General Councils. Thanks I cannot remember the resources, but here is someone who can assist you quite well in the information you are seeking: Dr. Don Merritt (Elder/Professor),326 E. John St., Carson City, NV 89706 (702)883-4836 He is currently teaching a class on Church History/Reformation at Northern Sierra Bible Institute.